ANAN-200D and WSJT-X/FT8 TX tone on waterfall display mushrooms

Dick
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ANAN-200D and WSJT-X/FT8 TX tone on waterfall display mushrooms

Postby Dick » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:11 am

While transmitting FT8 using ANAN-200D and PowerSDR mRX SW, I see the transmitted signal 'tone' spread from a narrow signal to an intermittent
cross-section slice thru an "old-style oil-can with spout" appearance.
This problem has been "fixed" by:
1- powering down the 200D via the PowerSDR mRX power switch
2- repeating #1 and removing 12V power to the 200D
3 - shutting down VoiceMeeter Banana
4- shutting down the computer and everything else

My signal probably sounds terrible and probably QRM's others when this spectral degradation of the TX-tone occurs.
What is going wrong here ?
73 Dick/w7wkr
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Re: ANAN-200D and WSJT-X/FT8 TX tone on waterfall display mushrooms

Postby K9RX » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:37 pm

Dick,
I'm surprised there's not any replies yet ... I'm told this is due to Windows dropping out - i.e. latency issues. I see it here as well and got a complaint yesterday about that very subject. I went from a fast i5 computer to an even faster i7 and it did not solve it - possibly made it worse!

If you think you solved it more than likely you've not - it comes and goes mostly. It will probably re-appear. Note after getting the complaint yesterday I tried something I had tried before... previously I don't know that it had any real benefit although it was with the previous computer that time ... anyway I tried setting the affinity changing from all 12 cores to 1. Since PSDR is not multi-threaded the thinking is it doesn't need all 12 and possibly it will be disrupted less frequently. Since having done that I've seen an almost completely cleaned up waveform with 0 of the 'big' drop outs I previously had, where the bubbles as I call them jumped up to only about 35 db down from the peak. And only a couple of the other phenomena that I have seen which is a big "bump/bubble" that shows at the bottom of the spectrum window. You might try it - just to see. If you don't know how to set the affinity let me know.

The ironic thing is I have this radio, among other reasons, because I have big antennas and run full legal often ... and I want to be as neighborly as possible ... thus the desire and the use of Puresignal ... but here on FT8 it seems not to hold that its a 'clean' arrangement!

Gary
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Re: ANAN-200D and WSJT-X/FT8 TX tone on waterfall display mushrooms

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:49 pm

Dick--I have no idea what you are trying to describe, although Gary seems to. It would help if you could post a screen shot of what you are seeing when it goes "bad". The built in Microsoft "Snipping Tool" application is an excellent way to take a screen shot.

P.S. Moving this topic to an appropriate sub-forum...
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Re: ANAN-200D and WSJT-X/FT8 TX tone on waterfall display mushrooms

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:55 pm

Dick--does it look like this?

Image
Dick
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Re: ANAN-200D and WSJT-X/FT8 TX tone on waterfall display mushrooms

Postby Dick » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:17 pm

Greetings All !

This is what the signal looks like when it jumps from a narrow normal signal to a wide-jumpy one.

Whoops! It appears to be not possible to attach the "Screen Capture" image of the jumpy-wide FT8 signal to this message. It seems like "everything-computer" turns into garbage for me.

I tried to drag/drop the image from the saved file to this message - failed. Tried to copy/paste it - failed. This forum's process does not work
like the Windows-7 stuff in my computer. It would be too easy to attach the screen-capture to an email message to one/many but that would not
leave tracks-in-the-snow for other forum users.

How does one attach a screen-capture - or anything else - using the forum system?

Meanwhile, I am stuck with a jumpy digitally generated signal and a ghost system where VoiceMeeter Banana is NOT running, WSJT-X software and PowerSDR mRX settings call-out VMB input/output instructions, and it is working as effectively as when everything was when VMB was in the loop.

I hope to be able to use the digital modes with my ANAN-200D and 7000dle and not be stuck with just CW/SSB to guarantee a clean signal. ANY help will be appreciated !

73 Dick/w7wkr
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Re: ANAN-200D and WSJT-X/FT8 TX tone on waterfall display mushrooms

Postby K9RX » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:43 pm

Dick,

That is not what I thought you were talking about ... turn DUP on first to see what the actual signal looks like... generally I don't run with DUP off but if my recollection is correct I don't 'see' any issues there... its when I have DUP on, when I'm looking at my actual signal fed back to the receiver, that I see there are issues.

Also I'm not sure what you're saying about VMB ... it (more than likely) is loaded on startup and you'd not have any signals to/from WSJT without having it running yet you seem to suggest it is not running? Not sure what you're referring to there. Scott might better understand.

Note the signal I'm seeing on your waveform isn't that aberrant - I'm seeing the side coming out at about 50 db down ... so that doesn't look overly harsh. The rounded top looks unusual though.... mine is as I'd expect - very peaky with steep sides (when right). My anomalies, when they occur, are much worse than this. I'll work on getting it on video (or maybe try to get lucky enough to capture an image as it is happening).

Gary
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Re: ANAN-200D and WSJT-X/FT8 TX tone on waterfall display mushrooms

Postby K9RX » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:45 pm

ok - I see one big faux pas .... you don't have DIGU selected! You're in USB mode!!!!!

Change that - otherwise nothing is going to be right.

Gary
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Re: ANAN-200D and WSJT-X/FT8 TX tone on waterfall display mushrooms

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:00 pm

Yes, as Gary says, select DIGU for digi modes. Doing this will automatically disable all transmit audio signal processing in PowerSDR (EQ, compressors, etc.) This is very important as such signals must be transmitted in an unmodified fashion.

And as Gary also says, turn on DUP. This will display the actual signal going out as received by RX1 during transmit. This signal will be sourced from either the internal coupling (on an older 200D this could merely be internal crosstalk on the board) or from the external coupler if set up that way. This is substantially different then the representation of the DAC datastream shown without DUP activated.

I would also recommend fine tuning the settings in Setup > Display, in particular those in Setup > Display > TX. See this thread for more information on how to do that:

https://apache-labs.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2545

Do all that, then report back your results.
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Re: ANAN-200D and WSJT-X/FT8 TX tone on waterfall display mushrooms

Postby Dick » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:42 pm

K9RX wrote:Dick,
I'm surprised there's not any replies yet ... I'm told this is due to Windows dropping out - i.e. latency issues. I see it here as well and got a complaint yesterday about that very subject. I went from a fast i5 computer to an even faster i7 and it did not solve it - possibly made it worse!

If you think you solved it more than likely you've not - it comes and goes mostly. It will probably re-appear. Note after getting the complaint yesterday I tried something I had tried before... previously I don't know that it had any real benefit although it was with the previous computer that time ... anyway I tried setting the affinity changing from all 12 cores to 1. Since PSDR is not multi-threaded the thinking is it doesn't need all 12 and possibly it will be disrupted less frequently. Since having done that I've seen an almost completely cleaned up waveform with 0 of the 'big' drop outs I previously had, where the bubbles as I call them jumped up to only about 35 db down from the peak. And only a couple of the other phenomena that I have seen which is a big "bump/bubble" that shows at the bottom of the spectrum window. You might try it - just to see. If you don't know how to set the affinity let me know.

The ironic thing is I have this radio, among other reasons, because I have big antennas and run full legal often ... and I want to be as neighborly as possible ... thus the desire and the use of Puresignal ... but here on FT8 it seems not to hold that its a 'clean' arrangement!

Gary
K9RX


Good morning Gary - How correct you are. I do get periodic 'fixes' but the problem returns. Sorta-like packing 10-pounds of 'stuff' into a 9-pound capacity balloon, fix it here and it pops-out somewhere else. How does one change the the multi-core affinity settings in a computer? My DELL laptop is an I-5 machine.

One thing I notice on the PowerSDR mRX... software waterfall display is the regularity of spike bursts. The carrier display is a reasonable straight line with spikes repeating every three-to-five seconds. I can't accurately measure the periodicity of spikes but visually they appear to be a repeating pattern.

I am really enjoying this 200D box and the PowerSDR mRX... on CW and SSB. The digital app's are giving me fits but I AM slowly learning how to drive them - too much time in the ditches at present!

73 Dick/w7wkr
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Re: ANAN-200D and WSJT-X/FT8 TX tone on waterfall display mushrooms

Postby K9RX » Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:02 pm

Dick,

To set the affinity you need to hover over the task bar at the bottom of the screen ... right click it - select "Task Manager"... then select "Details" tab ... go down the list until you find PowerSDR, right click on it - select "affinity" ... now hit the button at the top that deselects all - then select only one core - I usually select one near the bottom of the list - i.e. not 1 but in my case 10 (there are 12 cores in my i7). I've seen noticeably better performance with FT8 since having done this... although as stated previously it's hard to put a pin on this issue since if my hypothesis is correct, that this will reduce the likelihood of getting a drop out, it doesn't eliminate it - so I still see them occasionally, just not as often as it was when all cores were selected.

That stated as a controlled test of sorts it would be nice to have others, that are seeing issues with their waveform on FT8 (! critical that this is the case to begin with), try it and report back.

Scott: why is there a TX Profile shown when I'm in FT8? I'd have thought it would be 'everything off'.

Gary
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Re: ANAN-200D and WSJT-X/FT8 TX tone on waterfall display mushrooms

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:47 pm

K9RX wrote:Scott: why is there a TX Profile shown when I'm in FT8? I'd have thought it would be 'everything off'.

Because there are other things in the TX profile, most notably TX passband settings, that are useful to be controlled as part of a TX profile during digit op's. The radio will use those parts of the TX profile not disabled by selection of DIGU or DIGL operating modes.

For example, I have two different TX profiles I use for digi op's. One provides a 4KHz TX passband for when I'm doing hunt and pounce in a wide bandwidth. Another provides 600Hz TX passband, appropriately centered, for when I'm on my weekly Olivia net. The latter helps minimize any emissions outside my desired passband during QRO operations with Olivia. I also pre-linearize with the "single cal" mode and a two tone test signal to further limit IMD during digi op's. By these means I try to maintain the cleanest digi signal on the passband, just like I do with phone.
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Re: ANAN-200D and WSJT-X/FT8 TX tone on waterfall display mushrooms

Postby Dick » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:59 pm

Gary - I did what you described below, examined ALL of the tabs and their contents and did not see the PowerSDR anywhere. In fact, there was no Tab labeled "Details" or anything close to it.

I am using a DELL "LATITUDE E6510" laptop running W-7 software so it may not support the 'affinity' stuff.

thank you for your reply. 73 Dick/w7wkr
===============================================================
K9RX wrote:Dick,

To set the affinity you need to hover over the task bar at the bottom of the screen ... right click it - select "Task Manager"... then select "Details" tab ... go down the list until you find PowerSDR, right click on it - select "affinity" ... now hit the button at the top that deselects all - then select only one core - I usually select one near the bottom of the list - i.e. not 1 but in my case 10 (there are 12 cores in my i7).

Gary
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Re: ANAN-200D and WSJT-X/FT8 TX tone on waterfall display mushrooms

Postby K9RX » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:41 pm

As Scott would say "google is your friend" ... here is what a quick search brought up ("set affinity using WIndows 7"):

1 Press ctrl + alt + del to bring up the Windows Task Manager, and navigate to the Processes tab.
2 Find the program on which you want to set affinity. ...
3 Uncheck Now, simply check off the core you want this specific program to run on.
4 Click Ok, and you are done.

But first have you correctly selected DUP AND have you set the mode to DIGU? If so what were the results? There are those that say their system doesn't act up ... personally I think all systems for the most part will act up - just the frequency is going to be different ... I'm running a pretty fast computer system and yet see the 'bubbles' too frequently ... as Scott has said in the past about my setup "you're plaqued with problems" (paraphrasing) ... but I don't think my setup is anything that unusual - I just am AWARE of them and bring them up (hoping and searching for help to resolve them...).

Anyway - again- be sure to do the other things FIRST - leave affinity alone. See what you have. If you have a clean signal that never acts up - or whatever the results I'd love to hear about it. If it does have these jumps/burps/bubbles occasionally THEN (and only then) try the affinity test to see if it resolves them...

Gary
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Re: ANAN-200D and WSJT-X/FT8 TX tone on waterfall display mushrooms

Postby w-u-2-o » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:10 pm

Just piling on with Gary: look for horses not zebras. DUP, display settings, and DIGU, first. Then re-assess before going down the affinity rabbit hole.

P.S. You have plaque on your PC, Gary? Better see a dentist! :D Seriously, you must live in some sort of electromagnetic hell hole, because you do seem unfairly plagued with problems that should not be so intractable :(
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Re: ANAN-200D and WSJT-X/FT8 TX tone on waterfall display mushrooms

Postby K9RX » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:06 pm

Scott.... smiley faces aside, I thought you were getting better in this regard - not denigrating individuals?!

The system works wonderfully 95-something percent of the time - but even you would admit it is not a canned radio - it has issues. I have a document that I made more than a year ago with a list of them ... (done in an effort to help of course). I am as sure as one can be without having definitive knowledge that many suffer from the woes that I do. As I'm sure you well know MOST do not say anything about these things - they either put up with it or they give up and sell the radio for easier skies. That latter class is what hurts any radio, any product - because most will do what human nature dictates - they'll talk, read bad-mouth those issues to their friends and others along the way.

Personally I wish and would much rather at least one effort be put in to solving these many issues ... rather than putting time in to new features/Thetis. If the code is to be carried over that effort wouldn't be wasted or at least some substantial part of it for most of these... and those of us that use the ENTIRE radio - not just use it for 4Khz width rag chews on comfortable bands (no ill intended but I'd bet a common usage) wouldn't have to reset DB's or put up with FT8 signals that are super - then bad - then super....

But instead of once again suggesting that this has something to do with ME or my location or anything so personalized - it would be nice if someone would take the issues seriously and work WITH me - to fix them. (or if they are currently let me and others know) For an example: my CWX doesn't work ... nor was I ever able to get CW from N1MM to work even though I upgraded to a faster computer most specifically for that reason ... SURELY you don't think that has anything to do with my location? SURELY you don't think I'm the ONLY person that suffers from these ills (I'm not: a post I made had several replies saying "use an external K1EL box"). Correct me if I'm wrong - isn't CWX contained mostly in the radio - i.e. it has little to do with software .... correct? And if it is correct then I repeat - SURELY this isn't related to ME, or my location or my antennas or my computer - maybe my radio has an issue ... but that is the radio ...

I have my own product ... a 5-6 microcontroller based computer system custom designed for telescopes ... and have customers the world over. If I had (years ago) issues from a customer regarding the use of features I'd work WITH them to figure out what is going on - I'd be happy they were using features that I put lots of time in to and that might have a bug built in - often features that only the advanced users would use... working with them to resolve what is/was going on and then thanking them in the end for their using MY product and sticking with me, as well as working with me to resolve issues. I would NEVER suggest they had bad luck, as if luck has anything to do with anything ... that would be an arrogant suggestion that I'm perfect, my product is perfect, and the fault must lie with them. FAULT shouldn't be the issue - ISSUES should be.

One last note - I'm still here Scott - like you trying to help others. I made over 7000 (non-contest) contacts last year mostly using this radio ... and probably another 5000 or so so far this year... so YES, I DO use it - SSB, CW, RTTY, FT8 160 - 6 meters. And yes there is a STRONG love/hate relationship.

Gary
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Re: ANAN-200D and WSJT-X/FT8 TX tone on waterfall display mushrooms

Postby w-u-2-o » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:47 pm

K9RX wrote:Scott.... smiley faces aside, I thought you were getting better in this regard - not denigrating individuals?!
That wasn't denigration, that was sympathy! If you choose to take everything I write pejoratively there's little I can do about that.

I have written often on the subject of the open source process. Us non-developer types are hostage to the whim's of the developer types. Open source projects that have many tens or even hundreds of dev's don't have the problems we experience because you can almost always find a dev that is sympathetic to your specific bug or feature request. A case in point that I enjoy every day is the "Lineage" distro of Android, which I use on my Nvidia Shield tablet. God knows how many dev's work on that, and it is a wonder of stability and progress.

Contrast that situation with when there are essentially only four or so core dev's, with say another four "adjunct" dev's. It is difficult to find someone who is interested in working on things that are of interest to you or me (and I have a rather lengthy list of bugs and features myself). Instead they work on things that are interesting to them, which is as it should be in the open source world. I've dreamed of paying some middle school aged coder to fix some things in PowerSDR mRX that bug the crap out of me, and I even gave some not so serious thought to learning to code in C, myself :D

I thought about buying a Flex, but lack of linearization and NR2 stopped me right away, and they have their own bug list. The most noteworthy is the remote audio from a Maestro has this horrible 1 second latency during which you get a buffer dump of bad audio at the beginning of every transmission.

I thought about buying a 7300, but again no linearization and no NR2, and no ability to adjust TX passband for ESSB.

It's all a trade-off.

73,

Scott
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Re: ANAN-200D and WSJT-X/FT8 TX tone on waterfall display mushrooms

Postby K9RX » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:18 pm

Indeed.... PureSignal, a superb panadapter, filters that are very steep sided, something as simple as an S meter that works the way it should both in scaling and in relationship to preamps and attenuators ... all things that contribute. I have gotten close to pulling the cord on a new 7610 but all I need to do is to see that anemic smudged out pan display and I'm back on board again.

I am sure I could do the code - just haven't got the ambition anymore to set up the environment here ... and business has been really good this year so busy with that.

My apologies for overreacting ... I just don't like it if anyone (i.e. others seeing your post) thinks I'm "unlucky" which is what the implication was. Note I'm more than happy to carry on a conversation on what one agrees or doesn't agree with - for example if you don't agree that affinity has any bearing - I'm happy to have that discussion ... but sans emotions.

Speaking of that and getting back to the topic at hand - i.e. the occasional bad waveform on FT8 ... I will reiterate that it appears, and it is subjective, but I'm pretty sure that there are noticeably fewer burps and bubbles when I set the affinity to 1 on PSDR ... possibly, this one even more subjective and unknown, if I set WSJT to the same single core.

Gary
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Re: ANAN-200D and WSJT-X/FT8 TX tone on waterfall display mushrooms

Postby K9RX » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:02 pm

A 'controlled test' of sorts.... I had to reboot the computer, so this time I did not, as I have been lately, set the affinity of PSDR. I left it at all 12 cores.

When I run WSJT I get the bubbles/burps about once every 3 seconds - about 10 of them over 30 seconds (just hitting TUNE on WSJT and off to the side slightly so as not to interfere with anyone)... some of these are only 35 db down from the peak. When you have large antenna systems like 12 elements on 15 meters for example this matters - especially when you want to work DX and there is non-reciprocal propagation to Europe and points east where I hear them but I'm 20 db down from where I'm hearing them - so I have to run some power - as much as 200W or so ...

When I set the affinity to 1 core I got 1 bubble in 30 seconds once out of several test periods done. This test was repeated twice with the same results.

Seems not so much a "rabbit hole" to me ... but I'd love to hear from others that are first and most importantly seeing issues with drop outs and their negative effect on the transmitted waveform on FT8 or RTTY (DUP on) ... who then try setting the affinity to 1 core.

Gary
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