Noise Blanker ineffective

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Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby NZ5F » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:12 am

After a couple months I have a steady state operating situation going with the Anan 100D. It has been great rig and really fun to use.

The only thing that has not brought me joy with the rig is getting the Noise Blanker setup where it actually does anything to the man made noise in this location (residential neighborhood). My K3 was amazing with its NB and killed the noise here easily. I cannot get the Anan 100D to do anything even similar to what the K3 could do on NB.

NB or NB2 is ineffective with my Anan 100D and PowerSDR 4.3.2. I have default settings going so that might be the crux of my issue. The SNB seems to work a little better but my ear is not adjusting to the change in the audio sound in that setting.

This is not a slam on the software or the radio. I just can’t seem to get the NB to work on my local noise but had another radio that seemed to handle it much better.
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby w-u-2-o » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:31 am

All I can say is that, with all due respect to Warren et al, I also find the NB options in PowerSDR to be as mediocre as the NR is great.

I don't have a lot of noise around here, but I did have some really strange "frying" type noise one day and the SNB squashed it flat. But I think that was the exception rather than the rule.

Meanwhile I keep NR2 turned on literally all of the time. Even though I don't have a lot of noise it still works wonders even on the little bit of normal noise I do have. Miraculous stuff. ANF is also quite good on single carriers or birdies in the passband.

Have you tried NR or NR2 on your noise instead of the NB options?

73,

Scott
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby NZ5F » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:09 pm

Yes I use NR2 on the low bands below 40m for phone primarily. It is awesome. I have bad noise on 6m and I generally just deal with it. On 6m I am very picky about any filtering or NR or NB I put in. My K3 knocked out most of the noise on 6m but I can’t get the Anan to even make a small difference on it. I am not complaining I love my Anan 100D. This is just a weak point for me. Maybe when I move it will be different and I won’t have to worry about noise abatement.

Keith
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby NZ5F » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:42 pm

Are there any recommended settings for NB or NB2 that someone has figured out. I have moved the settings and doesn’t seem to do much.
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby K9RX » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:13 pm

I had posted a response to this but for whatever reason it never showed up....

I have a different take from you and Scott - I find the NB2 NB to be fantastic - or at least quite a bit superior to the one on the FTdx5000 (which was better than the Icom ProIII it replaced). I've compared the 2, the 5K and the 8K (running PSDR) and the PSDR NB2 provides quieter results and doesn't distort signals like the Yaesu does. I don't use it often but when I do it works well to very well...

as for NR2 - it also works very well - however it isn't generally intended for weak signal work as far as I can tell. And using it on louder signals becomes more of a personal choice then a necessity. That stated there was one time, on 6 meters, where it brought a station right out of the noise enough to make a contact whereas the Yaesu was unable to hear the station well enough to get a call let alone work them. In this case it was a combination of a weaker signal (not just weak and at the noise floor) and man-made noise that it was so effective at. This was the first time I had seen such an improvement in readability when comparing 2 radios. I had a Flex6700 here for 4 months comparing A/B style the Yaesu to it and never not once found a case where I could 'hear' better with one compared to the other... that was however achieved when I got the 8000DLE and used PSDR.

So bottom line is as is normal on all rigs, so far at least, the noise abatement controls are not for general use ... they're for specific conditions ... when used on those they work better than any other radio I've tested ... (although they can of course be used for general use if that is to your liking).

Gary
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby NZ5F » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:42 pm

I need to find the videos of the K3 and the Anan 10E I had going at the same time. There was no comparison in terms of effectiveness of the noise blanker. I find the 100D handles residential noise slightly better than the 10E, but in no way in the same category if the K3.

I am not a Yaesu loving person though I have owned a couple lower end models (F950, FT920, FT991, FT102, FT101E, FT1200). I was never impressed with their NB either. Maybe the K3 is just far more superior than most other brands in this category. I think every radio has its strong points and for me the NB is a weak point in this particular radio or maybe I should say software. It is almost completely ineffective for me. Meaning press NB or NB2 and nothing happens. Can’t say the same for the K3.

Keith
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby W1AEX » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:52 pm

I would echo Gary's experience with the NB and NB2 implementation. I don't often have line noise "buzz" after the power company replaced all the poles, transformers, primary and secondary wiring and all the associated hardware in my area several years ago. That being said, there is a 34KV feed across the river in the adjoining town that I can hear when I point my 6 meter beam to the southwest. The "buzz" is roughly S-7 when it is active and both NB and NB2 completely eliminate it with the default settings. As Gary mentioned, it does not distort the desired signals and I would add that it does not seem to be affected by other signals on the band, which makes it very different from other transceivers and receivers here.

As far as the NR and NR2 functions go, I only use them as a last-ditch measure with signals that are right on the threshold of being able to be heard. NR2 makes it possible to hear what voice stations are saying where otherwise contact would not be possible. I have found that there is a "watery" quality to signals when NR2 is enabled for voice modes so I'm not sure why some people leave it on all the time (Scott...????) but it does work extremely well with weak signals. I found that unchecking the "AE Filter" function minimizes the "watery" effect but have not yet decided if doing that also minimizes the effectiveness.

At any rate, in my opinion, the noise abatement provided by PowerSDR mRX PS is second to none in my book. Add in the (so-called) Diversity function with a separate RX antenna on ADC 2 and nothing comes close.

73,

Rob W1AEX
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby NZ5F » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:57 pm

I am curious why my experience is so much worse than others. I live in a crowded residential environment and probably no more noisy than any other residential neighborhood here. I wonder how some think it is so good and how my two Anan radios have little NB capability compared to my K3. Pretty interesting to say the least.

Keith
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby NZ5F » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:59 pm

With the K3 I kept my NB on all the time. It doesn’t distort he signal at all. It worked fantastic.

Don’t get me wrong I drank the Anan koolaid. all I can say this one particular feature does nothing here.

Keith
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby NZ5F » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:01 pm

I got a Flex 6400 coming soon so I will put the two up head to head to see if there is a difference for NB between the two. I will definitely make some videos and post them.

Keith
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby W1AEX » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:58 pm

Hi Keith,

That would be a very informative comparison and I am sure many would be interested in the results that you get.

As far as the effectiveness of NB1 and NB2 with the ANAN platform, from what I can see, the default settings excel with strong staccato type impulse noise typical of power line noise. Digital noise and hash from switching power supplies or various appliances don't seem to show any reduction when I encounter it. I'm not familiar enough with the settings to make intelligent choices for all the options that might mitigate that type of noise and my random trial-and-error approaches haven't been successful.

I have a close friend who is a long-time owner of a K3 and he has also had very good luck with the K3's NB at his station. The one thing it cannot handle is his own plasma television but that's not surprising as that kind of noise presents a very difficult task to put a dent in.

There may be a tutorial somewhere for optimizing NB1 and NB2 in PowerSDR mRX PS but I wouldn't know where to begin looking for it!

73,

Rob W1AEX
Last edited by W1AEX on Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:42 pm

W1AEX wrote:...I have found that there is a "watery" quality to signals when NR2 is enabled for voice modes so I'm not sure why some people leave it on all the time (Scott...????) but it does work extremely well with weak signals.

I find the artifacts it causes on the audio far less objectionable and fatiguing than the background noise. FAR less objectionable. I'm also the kind of person who uses the built-in squelch processing, mostly during those regional rag-chews where everyone is S9 or higher. Great stuff. I think it sounds almost FM-like when people are expanding the TX passband a little. And I know this is going to make your brain hurt, Rob :D , but I especially like NR2 with AM. No, actually I love it with AM. Seriously. It just cleans everything up so much. I really don't mind the artifact it throws on there at all (obviously).

73!

Scott
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby K9RX » Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:17 pm

As purely a DXer ... one that doesn't rag chew much at all ... (I'm polite - but I don't generally go over 5 minutes or so) ... and that is often listening to weak signals I think NR2 is most often not called for. I will add one important point: NR2 works best when QSB isn't in play. Otherwise since it takes time to process to give its effect if part of the signal is lost through QSB there is a larger part lost in the end output when using NR2 then if not. I guess that would be my major point. Note the stronger the signal the less this would play in ... which would support its use on stronger signals ... but generally when there is QSB it takes a bit too much out of the signal and one listens to or hears more of the 'watery' effect and not the intelligence ... It DOES work - and it works VERY well - but if the signal is varying and weak it is less useful to the point, with what I'm using the radio for, its rarely called for. And as a serious weak signal guy I am always trying things to glean that last bit of intelligence out of a signal :>)

As for NB2 - it works incredibly well here on the noise I use it on. Night and day difference. That is not to say a K3 wouldn't do the same or even better ... but I'm very pleased with how well it works here.

I've tried playing with the settings for both NR2 and NB2 ... but haven't found anything better than the default. Note for me I've never found NB1 or NR1 to be as effective as the "2" settings. I just go for the '2'.

I'm curious: how well does a K3 handle precipitation static? We had snow overnight and at one point last night 75 meters was at 30 over in noise!

Gary
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby K9RX » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:55 pm

a quick note - I am using NB2 right now on 10 meters ... in one direction the noise, whatever its coming from (yet to seek out) is quite bad ... NB2 reduces it by 13 db! That is BIG! The difference between NO contacts and many... it produces a curve on the panadapter when I'm using USB (96Khz width) of course being lowest in the the middle at the current frequency.

Gary
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby K9RX » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:04 pm

and let me finish with ... I tried testing on a SSB signal that was just above the noise.

Without any noise abatement: the station is at best an R3 (readability 3) but most of the time unreadable. I can tell its there ... that's about it.
With NR2: station remains at an R3
With NB2: station is easily an R5
With NB2 and NR2: station remains an R5

Note there is heavy QSB...

I add this realizing that others are not seeing what I'm seeing as this thread indicates - but at least adding a contrary argument to the premise embedded in this threads subject line... which I would say, for me, is not accurate.

Gary
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby NZ5F » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:56 pm

I have had multiple computer projects going here to get ready for the Flex 6400 arrival and am looking for the videos I shot when I had both the 10E and K3. I sold the K3 to buy the Anan 100D and have absolutely no regrets.

There is almost unlimited experimentation you can do with the Anan versus the K3 (of course for me NB, NB2 and a couple CW specific capabilities are gaps). The delta in capability for me in the NB area in particular is pretty stark. Since a few of you rave about the NB, I am wondering if my issues are somewhere in my system, however I have bands that have no noise levels and I don’t need NB. 6m is bad here along with 40m after 9pm. 80m is not as bad as 40m at this QTH. We are hopefully closing on a house on about an acre, no hoa and on top of a hill in San Antonio in next few weeks so maybe this problem will take care of itself with the move and higher antennas. I also have the Flex 6400 coming and my friends with a Flex 6300 has shared with me some pretty remarkable NB in action videos. I am thrilled to do a comparison of the two rigs. Should be really interesting the only Flex I have ever owned was the 1500.
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:24 pm

This thread makes me wonder if the K3 NB algorithms are more akin to NR2 than to a classical NB.
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby K9RX » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:51 pm

I ask this only to be thorough - I'd hazard a guess you know this - but when you say "along with 40m after 9pm" that seems to me to imply not 'noise' that the NB is designed to deal with but random band noise. At night of course 40 and 80 'go long' and storms and the like can all mash up to just lots of noise ... no noise blanker is going to take care of that ... the 6 meter one - that sounds like a NB noise and I have that here as well (and on 10 meters).

Gary
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby DO2ZA Erwin » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:19 pm

hi to all,

the NR2 is very good perhaps the best on our Radios?
But, with a strong Signal I have little Artefacts on the Audio.
Also with NB2, if the Band are closed it is good, but when I have strong Station, S9+, not on my Freq. but +/- 100 khz, it begins to pumping and distorts with loud Station.

By the way: I use a NF Filter named "Lingua Sprachextraktor", manufacted here in Germany, and...... this is def. the Best.
try it !!

73 Erwin
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby w-u-2-o » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:56 pm

DO2ZA Erwin wrote: By the way: I use a NF Filter named "Lingua Sprachextraktor", manufacted here in Germany, and...... this is def. the Best.
try it !!

Very interesting, Erwin! I found these videos on Youtube. Even though I don't speak German, it is quite impressive! :o





I see at this US website, http://www.ssbusa.com/LINGUA.html, that a) they are using a TI DSP chip, and b) it is quite expensive! Of greater interest is that it appears their processing is based on the recognition of the so-called speech spectral envelope. Intriguing.
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby NZ5F » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:47 am

Wow that is very impressive. I think that is on my short list of future purchases.

Keith
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby Joe-W4WT » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:47 am

Hmmm.... I don't hear anything that sounds as good as using NR2 to me. Maybe I'm missing something.

Joe W4WT
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby K9RX » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:52 pm

Agreed - it doesn't sound a whole lot different than NR2 when used with a loud signal .... note that at least for my analysis I'm strictly speaking of noise reduction in an effort to increase the S/N on a WEAK signal ... I don't really see any point in worrying about this when the signal is loud to begin with. For example the test above (in English using the 7700) to me sounds no different than if I just turned up (reduced) the AGC level on the signal! The noise goes away and you're left with the signal alone. At no extra cost - no extra fuss. But that generally isn't an option on weak signals where you have to have enough AGC to distinguish the signal to the noise floor.

Gary
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Re: Noise Blanker ineffective

Postby DO2ZA Erwin » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:34 pm

Hi to all,

here is the link to the German Site, I mean the Version (12 khz) from the US-Site is no longer in Produktion??
I use the 6 khz Version here.

http://www.hoerfabric.de/4/Produkt+LINGUA/
or
http://www.hoerfabric.de/6/LINGUA+Spezifikationen/

It costs here in DL 129 €

73 Erwin

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