Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

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Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby w-u-2-o » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:15 pm

It would appear that Angelia FPGA current requirements when running Protocol 2 firmware are in excess of that reliably delivered through the 3.3V PTC ("fuse"), F3.

According to the Angelia bill-of-materials (BOM) published on the Apache web site, F3 is a Bel Fuse O0ZCC0300FF2B, Digi-Key part no. 507-1513-1. It would appear that "O0ZC" is a typo, as searching the Digi-Key site come up with 0ZCC0300FF2B, which looks correct but is obsolete. Digi-Key offers a number of substitutes for that part number.

F3 is an 1812 SMT package. Unfortunately, I could not find a higher rated PTC in an 1812 package. Nor could I find a 0 Ohm resistor or a legit SMT jumper in an 1812 package.

I'm going to modify the Angelia in my 100D, but unless someone can suggest a part that fits, or can be made to fit (perhaps something in a 2010 package, not that I've found anything), it looks like I'll be using a small piece of wire and risking the lack of circuit protection. :(

73,

Scott
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby W1AEX » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:46 pm

That's unfortunate Scott, but you would certainly not be the only one who did that. When I was researching this potential problem with my Hermes - ANAN-100 several users of the ANAN and the original TAPR versions of Hermes said that they went with the wire jumper and never gave it another thought. I haven't found any mention of catastrophic failures to date.

When going down that kind of path my usual fallback response is "What could possibly go wrong???" :?

73,

Rob W1AEX
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby w-u-2-o » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:19 pm

I got a suggestion from the old Yahoo group to go one size smaller, to a 1210 size part. Littlefuse makes a 4.5A PTC, part no. 1210L450SL. If I can get someone to give me a good current measurement I may go with that. It's less than 1mm shy of the pad on each side, easily bridgeable with solder.
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby Joe-W4WT » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:55 am

This should work...

Mouser # 530-0ZCG0300FF2B
Mfr. # 0ZCG0300FF2B

Currently showing 6000+ can ship immediately.

Same part number as original except the 4th letter being a G rather than a C. Unless I've missed something, I see very little difference in the two items.

73,

Joe W4WT
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:08 am

Hi Joe,

That's the same part I identified up above, and since it's a direct replacement it's unfortunately not applicable to the problem, which is calling for a part with a much higher trip current.

Thanks & 73,

Scott
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby Joe-W4WT » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:45 am

You know, sometimes I wonder if getting older is better than the alternative... sorry for that. I was focusing on the "non-availability" of the current part rather than the obvious problem that you needed more hold current. I'll keep looking around.

Does this affect the Orion MKII boards also?

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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:06 am

Nope, the Orion and the Orion MkII are supposedly good to go. I hope! ;)

73!

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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby F1HDI » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:28 am

Hi,
On two anan100D (angelia) running protocol V2 and thus Thetis, I am seeing the following issue and wonder if this could be related to the 'fuse' issue described here :

- tests conditions are two anan100D, one from the early batches (rev16, low perf 10MHz tcxo) and an upgraded one (rev24, CWT817 tcxo)
- tuned on 10,1387 USB
- VAC 4.14
- Thetis
- a leobodnar GPSDO trimmed on 10.1397 (visible at 1000Hz offset in th wsjt waterfall)
- wsjt-x 1.9.1 wspr mode
- let & go
- spectrumlab in // on the same audio stream with very high resolution (I can see better than 0,1Hz)

I see frequent 'clock restart' like the one I have when powering on the radio.

What do you think , should I move to a bigger fuse, which one ?.

73 Jean-Marc
73 Jean-Marc F1HDI
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:18 pm

Couldn't say for sure, Jean-Marc. I don't know what a "clock restart" is.

The only PTC that's been identified that might work is the 1210L450SLWR identified above. As far as I know, nobody has tried it yet. However, thanks for reminding me, I'm going to order a couple of them from Mouser right now!

73,

Scott
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby F1HDI » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:03 am

Hi Scott,
A quick 'back' on my anan100D#1 from V2 to V1 this morning show No sign of osc instability either on warm-up nor (after 1 hour) on regular basis. I am not very familiar with the features of this forum but can send measurement pictures to you.

I'll do the same measurement on my 100D#2 later on but strongly suspect that the inrush current requested by V2 partially 'blow' the (rearmable) fuse on the board, making the voltage dropping too much and thus creating some kind of instability.

Do you know of some angelia users using V2 ? which mods did they apply (strap of the fuse ?, fuse replacement ?)

73 Jean-marc
73 Jean-Marc F1HDI
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby w-u-2-o » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:44 am

As far as I know, only one person has modified their Angelia and they used a small bit of wire. When I get the part I just ordered (see above) I am going to try that.
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby Segrest » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:09 pm

Where can I find a picture to locate the fuse on my Angelia board?

Bob
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:00 pm

I don't have a photo, but if you orient the Angelia card so that the ATX power connector is at the bottom left, then you will find F3 just above the right end of the power connector and to the left of the group of jumpers. It should be clearly marked on the silk screen.

By the way, this was easy to find: download the schematic from this forum, find F3, find what large and easily identifiable components are near F3 on the schematic, find the big components on the card, then look around there. You can do this for any component.

73,

Scott
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby Segrest » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:02 am

Hi Scott,

Did you get around to change the F3 fuse in your Angelia?

Did it resolve the apparent lockup problem?

Have there been adverse effects?

Bob
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby w-u-2-o » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:34 am

Hi Bob,

I actually never got around to modifying my 100D, so I can't really say. I've been concentrating on my 8000DLE.

73,

Scott
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby vk1hx » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:12 am

Hi all,

Could someone post a picture where the F3 PTC on the Angelia Board is (for a 100D) please?

The only F3 (2amp) fuse I can see on the schematic is circled in the below photo. Just wanting to make sure I replace the right one.
Attachments
123.JPG
123.JPG (87.47 KiB) Viewed 1901 times
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby Segrest » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:41 pm

The only photo I have found so far is/was the one for the Angelia board on the Apache-Labs site. The resolution is poor when you zoom in to the level required, but it appears the silkscreen on the board labels the fuses pretty clearly.

I have ordered the new fuse (LightFuse #1210L450SLWRL) from DigiKey (#F5790DKR-ND) and will open the rig when it arrives.

If not me, I hope who ever does this first will take and post a picture along with their comments on the effort.

I actually use one of the TAPR built Hermes boards in an Anan enclosure/amp kit for digital work. I purchased the 100D specifically to use with Protocol 2 and Thetis. The fact that it turned out it won't work has been frustrating, and I'm hoping the F3 replacement will get me back on track.

Bob
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby w-u-2-o » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:20 pm

vk1hx wrote:Hi all,

Could someone post a picture where the F3 PTC on the Angelia Board is (for a 100D) please?

The only F3 (2amp) fuse I can see on the schematic is circled in the below photo. Just wanting to make sure I replace the right one.
Just look three posts above yours. I posted a description of where F3 is. That will get you in the neighborhood. F3 is clearly marked on the silk screen of the card.

73,

Scott
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby w-u-2-o » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:23 pm

Segrest wrote:The fact that it turned out it won't work has been frustrating, and I'm hoping the F3 replacement will get me back on track.

Bob
KO2F
Bob--how many different versions of P2 did you try? If you only tried v12 and it didn't run, then fixing F3 is the least of your problems. It should at least run for a short time until the board, and F3, warms up. Try some older rev's, just like people did in this thread:

https://apache-labs.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=3054
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby Segrest » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:51 pm

Hi Scott,

Actually, I have tried the last 4 or 5 Protocol 2 versions for the 100D. I didn't have any significant issues loading the firmware or launching Thetis. But in each case, my 100D would lock up and become unresponsive within an hour or 2. In my case the rig is not in the same building as my operating position. And while I can power cycle the rig remotely, I find having to do this more than once a week is not really acceptable.

I think this is pretty consistent with some of the other experiences expressed in this thread. My 'won't work' statement is perhaps an over simplified summary of this experience.

Bob
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby w-u-2-o » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:42 pm

Bob,

Your lengthier explanation makes a lot more sense, thank you.

I also operate in a similar way, with my station rack in the basement, complete with remote switching of power, and remote switching of the bootloader switch, too. My operating position is in my second floor studio office. You can see photos at my qrz.com page.

Therefore it does certainly sound like a thermally related failure. And that is certainly not a good way to operate, as it tends to have deleterious effects on QSOs, nets, and tempers :D

If you make the modification, either with a bit of wire or the part number I identified, you may be the first to do so, and your results will be of interest to all of us!

If you don't already have a hot air rework station, this might be the perfect excuse to buy an inexpensive one off of Amazon ;)

73!

Scott
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby vk1hx » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:55 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:
vk1hx wrote:Hi all,

Could someone post a picture where the F3 PTC on the Angelia Board is (for a 100D) please?

The only F3 (2amp) fuse I can see on the schematic is circled in the below photo. Just wanting to make sure I replace the right one.
Just look three posts above yours. I posted a description of where F3 is. That will get you in the neighborhood. F3 is clearly marked on the silk screen of the card.

73,

Scott


Yes thanks Scott, I did see that much later after posting.
Cheers
Phil - VK1HX
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby Segrest » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:23 pm

Well, my new fuses arrived in the post yesterday and I had some time to open my 100D for the first time this morning.

I was shocked to discover that the prior owner of my 100D had already replaced the F3 fuse with a wire bridge. I purchased the rig more than 2 years ago and didn't recall any mention that it had been modified. But this could be a lost thought on my part.

I will reassemble my rig and try the Protocol 2 uploads again to reconfirm my prior investigations. Barring a different result (yes, I too do stupid from time to time) I will have to challenge the effectiveness of the F3 fix.

I did take a couple pictures of my board and will be happy to share them, but I have no way to post them to this site.

Bob
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:35 pm

Bob,

It is easy to post photos. When making a new post, look down below the Preview and Submit buttons. You will see some other options and a tab marked "Attachments". Click that tab and then click the "Add files" button. Add the file then click the "place inline" button and the right codes will be added to your post wherever the cursor insertion point was last located.

Since it can't be a power issue then the problem must be that you have a hardware corner case whereby no available version of P2 firmware will close timing on your hardware as it warms up. This is the fundamental issue with P2 firmware reliability right now. The logic and functionality is fine, but there has been tremendous difficulty in getting a build that will close timing on 100% of the hardware under 100% of voltage, silicon speed, and thermal conditions. The problem is primarily associated with the Gigabit Ethernet MAC timing, as everything else pretty much runs at the same speed, particularly if you select a legacy IF sample rate like 192 or 384KHz.

Rick, N1GP, with just a tiny bit of help from me, has made tremendous strides. It used to be that the code would only close timing on a small fraction of serial numbers. Now it's more like 80%, and you have to choose between 3 or 4 builds to get to that. Nevertheless, there is still a ways to go on solving this problem. Because of certain pin assignments that were chosen for PLL clocks when the hardware was designed, it might not ever be solvable. But we will see. Right now Rick is on a programming hiatus, being busy with life and work.

73,

Scott
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby Segrest » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:32 pm

Ok, I overlooked the attachments tab...

Here is a close up of the bridged F3 fuse.
100D F3 Brigded.png
100D F3 Brigded.png (562.63 KiB) Viewed 1810 times


And this is the whole board is shown below.

I hope this helps...

Bob
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100D Full Board F3 Bridged.png
100D Full Board F3 Bridged.png (1.09 MiB) Viewed 1810 times
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby Segrest » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:38 pm

Scott,

Your last comments are encouraging. Can you identify the specific builds in your list of timing variants? I will clearly want to try each of them.

I apologize for seeming obtuse, but I'm not sure I understand your sample rate comment. Are you suggesting the rate I use is a factor? If so, are things more stable with the legacy rates?

Bob
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:43 pm

Segrest wrote:Scott,

Your last comments are encouraging. Can you identify the specific builds in your list of timing variants? I will clearly want to try each of them.
See this topic:

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=3054

I apologize for seeming obtuse, but I'm not sure I understand your sample rate comment. Are you suggesting the rate I use is a factor? If so, are things more stable with the legacy rates?
At higher sample rates the data flows through the FPGA at the higher rate, of course. With all those transistors switching faster the FPGA will pull more average current and will get hotter. Whether or not changing them results in any significant difference for you is unknown. I suspect most of the current increase is still related to GigE operation. Plus, one of the major reasons to run P2 is that you can run higher sample rates. I prefer 768KHz myself.

73,

Scott
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby Segrest » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:52 pm

Hello Everyone,

I finally got through the knot hole and managed to get Protocol 2 and Thetis running on my 100D.

The bottom line for me was having the F3 jumper in place (by accident as it turned out) and loading the Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.1_pre1_5770 Protocol 2 firmware. The latter is not in the standard distribution repository... To find the specific post that has the details, simply search the Apache forums for Angelia_Protocol_2_v12.1_pre1_5770

Bob
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby w-u-2-o » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:37 am

In another topic, Hauke, VK1HW reports:
Fuse: MF-USML400-2 (Element14 277-6833) fits like a glove
So that means either the Bourns or Lttlefuse 1210 size 4A devices should work well.
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Re: Angelia F3 PTC ("fuse") replacement/upgrade for Protocol 2

Postby devnull » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:22 am

yep either will do. Anything smaller and a bridge brd has to be made.
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