Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

DL2LBV
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby DL2LBV » Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:46 pm

ramdor wrote:
DL2LBV wrote:PS:
That would also mean that the one for the receive pins would also be activated for transmit.


there are only 7 pins, shared in RX/TX. but yes, a pin would need to be high in RX and TX. The TX side is ok, can be controlled by xPA, but xPA has no interaction on the RX pins (as yet).

R.


You are right, Richie, there are only 7 pins.
After sleeping on it for a night, I have an addition:
Maybe I am thinking too simply. Could it be solved with a second checkbox for each receive pin? This should insert the condition, "only execute Receive Pin n if the Ext PA checkbox for Transmit Pin n is activated".
Incidentally, the control of the band filter can also be deactivated when the PA is switched off. Everyone can decide for themselves whether this is a benefit.

If the checkbox is not selected, everything should work as usual.

Jörg
Last edited by DL2LBV on Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby va7qi » Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:11 am

one for the wish list:

The ability to use the bandstack or memories from RX2. If I run FT8 on RX1 I cant just swap the receivers to change to a bandstack entry or to one of the memories. The bandstack and or memories could be the same as for RX1 or they could be separate.

73 de va7qi, ....Erik.
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby va2na » Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:00 pm

Hi There!

Nice work on thetis:

My wish list:

- Multimeter (Tx)
- AMP ON/OFF button on front page that disabled and enabled an IO on TX to control ext amp quickly!

Best 73
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby ramdor » Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:09 pm

va2na wrote:Hi There!

Nice work on thetis:

My wish list:

- Multimeter (Tx)
- AMP ON/OFF button on front page that disabled and enabled an IO on TX to control ext amp quickly!

Best 73


the amp control can be done using the OC (1-7) pins, with the new xPA features in the updated 21k+ release. The external rca PA output can not be controlled by current firmware/software at this time. The meter improvements are already on the list.

cheers, R.
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby va2na » Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:48 pm

Thank for the info!!<

Your the MAN :D
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby K1LSB » Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:45 pm

ramdor wrote:The external rca PA output can not be controlled by current firmware/software at this time.

cheers, R.

Rich,

Don't the following software options currently control the RCA jack?

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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby NC3Z » Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:56 pm

Mark, that only disables the PTT in line on the Mic connector. TUN and MOX and 2TON still drive the RCA jack if this is checked.

Best bet is to use the new OC pins feature.
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby ramdor » Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:58 pm

They insert delays and stuff into TX/RX switching, but do not de-couple the PTT Out RCA from TX.

R.
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby DO2ZA Erwin » Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:03 pm

NC3Z wrote:Mark, that only disables the PTT in line on the Mic connector. TUN and MOX and 2TON still drive the RCA jack if this is checked.

Best bet is to use the new OC pins feature.


And a extern PTT, like Footswitch, on the the RCA PTT-In

Erwin
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby K1LSB » Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:05 pm

Got it, thanks for clarifying.

Mark
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby NC3Z » Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:27 pm

DO2ZA Erwin wrote: And a extern PTT, like Footswitch, on the the RCA PTT-In


Erwin, yes those in addition.
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby NC3Z » Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:11 pm

Didn't want to post this in the "Thetis v2.8.11 - current issues" post. With "Auto AGC" we can now display the SNR with each Peak Blob. Is it possible to have the SNR calculated over the whole passband? This is so much more useful that just plain old signal strength.
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby LY3G » Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:02 pm

Hello.

I use "Andromeda Top Controls" screen with midi console. All is perfect. I'm missing only the filter value in this window.

Gintas
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby ramdor » Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:16 pm

LY3G wrote:Hello.

I use "Andromeda Top Controls" screen with midi console. All is perfect. I'm missing only the filter value in this window.

Gintas


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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby LY3G » Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:40 pm

:(
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby ramdor » Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:12 pm

ah sorry, they do not display with the adromeda top controls. I had top controls turned on, which is different to adromeda top controls.

R.
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby W2PA » Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:26 pm

AGC reacts to an AM signal a bit differently from how it reacts to an SSB signal, depending on filter settings. I've noticed this over the years going back to PowerSDR/OpenSDR-MRX. It's not a bug, is probably working as designed, but could be better. The symptom is that the audio level of an AM signal is sometimes noticeably lower in AM or SAM mode than it is when using an SSB mode at zero-beat for the same signal.

To see this, try the following on 80m where good AM signals are plentiful: Set your LSB filter's upper bound to something below the carrier, like -50 Hz (the lower bound can be something reasonable for LSB, like -3000), and set your SAM filter width to something reasonable for AM, say 6 kHz (-3000 and +3000) or so, whatever it takes to exclude QRM. Select LSB mode and tune in an AM signal to zero-beat - i.e. the VFO is right on the signal's carrier frequency, and observe the audio level by ear. Now, without changing anything else, switch to SAM mode. You should notice that the audio level is lower. You can switch back and forth between SAM and LSB and hear the difference.

I believe what is happening is that in SAM mode the AGC is reacting mostly to the carrier, which is the highest level component of the signal, whereas in SSB it's reacting only to the SSB envelope, which is lower than the carrier on average (just look at the panadapter). Again, this is not a bug but is the way it is expected to work.

You can force the two audio levels to be the same by doing the following: Change your LSB filter to have an upper bound that includes the carrier, say +50 Hz. Now tune in the same AM signal on LSB to zero-beat as above and switch back and forth between LSB and SAM. You should observe that the audio level is now equal between the two. That's because in LSB the passband now includes the carrier and the AGC is now reacting to the carrier (even though it's at zero beat and you can't hear it) just like it is in SAM mode.

This is not a big deal but it is a minor annoyance that switching between modes requires me to adjust the AF gain. I wonder if the AGC can be made to react to the sidebands alone in AM modes to mitigate this effect. And perhaps make that a user-selectable AGC setting. I haven't looked at the code myself (yet) to see how it works, but I suspect anything's possible with SDR. ;-)

If this were implemented, I'm guessing that you might lose the "quieting" effect of the carrier when in AM mode, but SAM would work as before (or not?). So perhaps a compromise would be to have the AGC gain be different on AM and SSB for a given signal based on whether or not there is a carrier.

Just tossing this out there for discussion.
73,
Chris, W2PA
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby K1LSB » Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:59 pm

Chris,

I've observed the same thing - AM or SAM is lower volume than SSB. My workaround is to engage NR2 or ANF. Either of those will boost the audio level back up to roughly SSB levels.

In fact, NR2 is so effective at reducing band noise that I usually just leave it on regardless of mode (SSB or AM), so it's been so long since I've noticed the low audio phenomenon you're describing, I'd almost forgotten about it.

Mark
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby w-u-2-o » Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:25 pm

Interesting! I had noticed this before but never paid it much attention. Like Mark, I leave NR2 engaged 100% of the time. I know that some AM purists don't like to do this because they feel the NR2 artifacts change the character of the sound, and they do. But like Mark, I much prefer the sound of NR2, even on high SNR signals. For me it is far less fatiguing.

However, to Chris' point, this is a real thing. I tried the DC block option to see if it would cause a difference but it does not. Turning off NR2 and all other processing, it can be seen that the difference is essentially 6dB. In this example, I tuned an AM broadcast station, zero beat, 10KHz passband on AM/SAM, and 5KHz passband (40 to 5100Hz, actually), stock Medium AGC setting, and made the following graph. The first 15 seconds are in SAM (and AM appears the same), the latter 15 seconds in LSB.

The question, of course, is does this really matter? Surely you would want AGC to account for the energy in the AM carrier, no?

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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby W2PA » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:29 am

Nice measurement, Scott. I would have guessed the difference was more like 3dB. Interesting.

Well it's a minor thing, but an annoyance as I pointed out, having to adjust the AF gain when switching modes.

I think a simple (software) adjustment of the level of AGC reaction to the carrier would solve the problem, yet retain AGC action in response to the carrier that provides the nice quieting action of the carrier against the background noise. This would be applied only in AM modes.

I guess the bottom line is I want the AGC to provide a constant audio level within its operating range - the main point of AGC - when changing modes.
73,
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby K1LSB » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:51 am

w-u-2-o wrote:Surely you would want AGC to account for the energy in the AM carrier, no?

IMO (and to Chris' point) the AGC should level audio energy, not RF energy. If it did that then mode (AM, SSB) would be irrelevant.

Mark
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:14 pm

I did some research on the AGC issue. I can report that it is working as originally intended, nothing is broken. The AGC responds to the full signal, including carrier. Long ago in the development of the WDSP library there was an attempt to have it respond to audio for AM, much as has been suggested here. The AM operators at that time quickly responded that the quieting due to the carrier was missing and they found that quite annoying. Thus the implementation remained as it is today.

It should be possible to merely add a 6dB boost in the audio chain when in AM/SAM. You could potentially petition Richie for such an option.
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby W2PA » Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:00 pm

As I suspected. Thanks for the additional info, Scott.

I actually experimented with simply boosting the audio in AM modes, using 3dB instead of the 6 you measured. It worked, sort of. But doing this introduces a different problem.

If you simply boost audio on AM then when a signal is present you'll hear a similar audio level as on SSB as intended. But when no signal is present you'll hear a higher background noise level than on SSB, which would not be good.

One possible modification (intentionally not calling it a "fix") is to have the AGC decrease its action (i.e. increase the resulting audio) when a carrier is present in the passband in AM modes. I imagine the code is already in there to recognize a carrier to enable the automatic notch to do its thing.
73,
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby w-u-2-o » Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:03 pm

Feature request: numerically show commanded AGC auto noise floor compensation setting on G line, next to the "G", when compensation is active. This will assist with the following feature request.

Feature request: when AGC auto noise floor compensation is active, allow movement of the G line or AGC gain control and make that the new setting (instead of locking these controls).
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby GW0NTM » Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:09 pm

Hi

I'd love it if we could get rid of the need to differentiate between CTUN/ non-CTUN mode. In ESDR2, you can achieve every combination of movement and zoom all without having to change a mode. It's all driven by where you click/ drag, which (imo) is more intuitive and speedier.

Thanks
Robin
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby K1LSB » Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:30 pm

GW0NTM wrote:Hi

I'd love it if we could get rid of the need to differentiate between CTUN/ non-CTUN mode.

Robin

I agree, if only because CTUN has always been a persistent source of confusion (and resulting aggravation) to me.

Mark
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby W7GES » Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:18 pm

I really like the CTune feature the way it is implemented now.

If you want to drag your frequency to the next signal with the mouse cursor it is easily done. I don't like the way the received signals smear in the waterfall when tuning this way but the solution that works for me is below...

If you use an external Tuning knob like TMate and choose CTUNE it makes tuning to the next signal on the waterfall very easy.

The passband frequency moves back and forth on the pan adapter and you can easily find the next signal on a crowded band without having the waterfall skew and smear on the display.

If the CTUNE mouse cursor function does get changed please make it an option to have an external tuning knob use the CTUNE style tuning...

Thanks,

George / W7GES
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby w-u-2-o » Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:17 am

CTUN works great as is. I wouldn't change a thing.

I rarely turn CTUN off.
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby NC3Z » Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:31 am

w-u-2-o wrote:Feature request: when AGC auto noise floor compensation is active, allow movement of the G line or AGC gain control and make that the new setting (instead of locking these controls).


Feature request add on: Let the auto AGC to also set the MIN level of the Spectrum Grid.
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Re: Thetis 2_8_11 changes/ideas/wants/wishes

Postby PD3LK » Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:39 am

It works nice with my midi vfo controls. I don't mind changes if we get an option in setup to choose between the current mode and whatever mode.
73 PD3LK Leon

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