Audio popping on strong SSB signal

dieseldawg
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Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby dieseldawg » Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:39 am

Thetis with Protocol 2 develops popping on receive audio after running for a while. Usually happens on strong SSB signal. If Thetis is powered off then back on, popping is gone. Anyone explain this or offer a solution?

Greg
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:25 pm

Are you using VAC for receive audio, or do you have speakers plugged into the ANAN?
dieseldawg
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby dieseldawg » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:04 pm

Speaker plugged in front jack.
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby SA3ATF » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:18 pm

It sounds like you are running VAC and that there will be hiccups there, but it should not be affected by the signal strength.
How do you get the sound between radio, computer and back?
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:25 pm

He's not running VAC.
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby dieseldawg » Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:08 pm

Scott, seems like some sort of memory cache is filling up because it corrects if i just power down Thetis, then power up. I have an Nvidia card and am using directx, so doesn't seem like computing power limitation. I am running 32 bit version.
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat May 01, 2021 1:35 pm

OK, so not a VAC problem. Clearly Thetis is not keeping up, but I don't think it is Thetis' fault, so this is probably not a Thetis topic per se, but really a topic about PC real-time audio performance.

Our old thread on this subject is getting badly out of date. I'm probably going to have to write a new one for Thetis. However, very briefly, the vast majority of these problems is caused by Thetis real-time threads getting blocked by the Windows scheduler. Here's a laundry list of things to check, most of which you are probably already doing:

1. Get the LatencyMon tool. If it says you have problems then you need to sort those out.
2. Run 64 bit Thetis.
3. In Thetis run DirectX display mode with VSync turned on.
4. Turn down your Thetis main display refresh rate until you no longer see a red square flashing at the top left of the panadapter.
5. Do not run other apps at the same time. Browsers, particularly Chrome, are often the worst offenders.
6. Alternatively, use a tool like Prio to set process priority high or very high on Thetis and as low as you can get on things like Chrome (I do this and it works wonderfully).
7. Get a faster computer. Thetis likes more cores and is not as sensitive to CPU speed. People with 8 core machines generally report Thetis CPU consumption in the 7 to 8% range.

It could be some sort of networking problem but that is extremely rare.
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby rbduck » Sat May 01, 2021 4:53 pm

dieseldawg wrote:Thetis with Protocol 2 develops popping on receive audio after running for a while. Usually happens on strong SSB signal. If Thetis is powered off then back on, popping is gone. Anyone explain this or offer a solution?

Greg
N8MW


Very recently I had this same or very similar problem. I would start Thetis. As time past the audio would begin this popping an crackling noise. The more time past the worse it would get. There were no buffer overflows or underflows. There were no sequential errors. If I stopped and restarted Thetis the problem would be gone, but then start again after a while. Thinking it was a VAC issue I tried different settings. Nothing I tried seemed to help.

During my troubleshooting of the "noise burst after initial transmit" issue (another thread), I had went though my PC hardware. I removed , reseated and retightened everything on the motherboard. This included removing my Sound Blaster sound card. I also uninstalled all software and drivers related to the Sound Blaster card. I rebooted and ran the sound in Thetis through the motherboard sound card. I heard no distorted sound. I then reinstalled the Sound Blaster card along with its associated software and drivers. Since I have put all this back to normal the popping and crackling has not recurred. It seems I solved one issue while working on another.

I don't know if this is anything like you are experiencing Greg, but maybe something here might help. I hope I'm clear here. Many days went into trying to solve this other issue. This is point at which I noticed the distorted sound was gone.
73
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby W3MMR » Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:54 am

Over the years, ive noticed that everything else that I do on my PC, while I have Thetis open, it has an effect on Thetis. Weather it be the audio, refresh rate of panadapter, FPS, etc. Ive used the speaker jack, ive used VAC, ive used it all. When the PC starts to get taxed, the audio in Thetis is the first thing to "go". The pops on strong signals, hell pops and clicks all the time.

I noticed that when I open Audacity, however I am using VAC, it causes the audio artifacts instantly. And they continue until I either re-start the PC or restart my USB mic pre. Weird. But above my pay grade hi hi.


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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby FM5GB » Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:42 pm

Hi,

The higher the sample rate the more issues (audiocracks and frame dropouts) will occur.
The highest I can run without problems is 768000. Of course any other computer activity will
disturb Thetis.
I'm getting more and more annoyed by this and consider a "thin client" solution.

73s Phil FM5GB
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby W2PA » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:25 pm

Guys - have you tried this Windows tweak?
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3787

It completely solved all my data stream drop-out problems. See the forum under that entry for other info.
73,
Chris, W2PA
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FM5GB
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby FM5GB » Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:19 pm

Hi,
Of course I adjusted the throttle value in the register. This improved things under 768000 SR only marginally. 1536000 SR is useless and should not even be provided as an option in Thetis. Note that this issue is much more important in FM mode : why ?
When you consider other setups (the so called "thin client" options as are the Flex 6000 series) you would be confortable with much less computer power when running your station. These radios can be run even with your smartphone or your Mac computer.
(my computer : Win10 64. I7 4770K @ 3.9 GHz, 0.5 Tb SSD, 16 Mb RAM).

73s Phil FM5GB
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby W2PA » Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:57 pm

It might still be worthwhile to investigate other settings. You should be able to run at the higher rate, IMO. Sorry - can't explain why you're having issues. Maybe someone else here can chime in to suggest something.

With Thetis, P2 firmware v2.0, and the ANAN-8000DLE, I can run at 1536000 sample rate with no drop-outs, and Thetis reports my total CPU load is averaging around 21%. This is with all of DXLab running plus five Firefox windows and a total of at least 50-60 tabs open. I know others with similar experience. The high sample rate is quite useful for seeing broad swaths of spectrum.

I'm not using VAC, my computer is an Intel Core i7 4820K with 32GB memory running Win10 64.
73,
Chris, W2PA
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby FM5GB » Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:07 pm

Hi Chris
I forgot to tell you I was using an old Orion MK1 board from an Anan 200D. So I believe the board and its firmware is probably also involved
in the issue.
I'm not using VAC either.
When using 1536000 Sample Rate (RX one running alone) Thetis displays 9 to 14 % total CPU load. A third party software (RealTemp 3.70) would give me around 16 % much more constant.
When RX2 is switched on processor load more than doubles.
The dropouts (audio & videoframes) occur rather randomly but are very severe when opening an internet page or another software (HRD, KiCad...)

I can also mention that the issue is exactly the same wether I use the dedicated NIC on a separate net (192.168.5.2) or the main on board Intel LAN (on the 192.168.2.1 net).
What looks weird to me :
1- the audio cracks are much more noticeable when operating my 2 meter transverter in FM mode. When switching from SSB to FM the processor load is 50% higher (I have no explanation for this).
2- All these annoying issues are very variable from one day to another despite having the same software combination running. Sometime 1536000 is useless and 768000 SR is severly disturbed.

Still a FW timing issue ?

73 Phil FM5GB.
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby W2PA » Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:48 pm

It may be a timing issue, Phil, but my intuition tells me it's something else affecting the Ethernet interface. I had seemingly endless headaches with drop-outs until I applied the throttling registry mod. In my case they were entirely Ethernet-related. Changing firmware versions did nothing. Nor did changing client software to (e.g.) SDR Console.

Have you tried the additional registry mods that Jordi posted here?
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3780

Also, if you haven't tried it, try tweaking the advanced settings on your Ethernet adapter. A summary is here:
https://helpdesk.flexradio.com/hc/en-us ... erformance

These seemed to affect things for me but were highly variable and never completely eliminated drop-outs. In fact, I would sometimes think I had it fixed only to have them return randomly, sometimes hours later. Very frustrating.

By the way, after a Win10 update a couple of months ago, this problem got much worse, tending to support the idea that it's a Win10 issue (as also supported by the success of the registry mods). Strange.
73,
Chris, W2PA
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby W1JA » Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:57 pm

FWIW: I was having lots of audio dropout problems on my 200D (Orion board of course). Applying the no-throttling registry fix previously mentioned eliminated all dropouts. Been operating for weeks (at RX1 sample rate 384k, RX2 sample rate 1536k) with not a single audible dropout.

73, John W1JA
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby FM5GB » Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:09 pm

Hi Chris

Yes I did all the registry mods beginning with throttling FFFFFFFF, and then the two others one by one (by the way the values of the last dword line was allready the recommended ones).
Very unfortunately things are still as odd.
My very maximum SR is 798000 on RX one in order to eliminate dropouts (almost) completely.
And please note : cracks are maximum in FM as is the processor load in this mode.

The only solution to reduce drastically the dropouts was to increase the Buffer Size Setup/DSP/Options. To correct the popings in FM I had to go up to the maximum of 1024. 512 in SSB, 128 in Digital. CW was left unchanged at 64.

After extensive testing especially with the 2 meter transverter I still notice many audio cracks and frame drops when in 1536000 SR and FM mode.

See my test setup below.

73s Phil FM5GB
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby W2PA » Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:56 pm

Very nice lab setup, Phil.

Did you try adjusting the Ethernet advanced settings? I'm still thinking it's a network issue stemming either from the NIC/driver and its settings, or a Win10 issue other than those registry settings. Did the situation get worse after the Win10 20H2 update? Several people saw a dramatic worsening at that point.

As you noted, it's strange that your CPU usage goes higher on FM by a factor of 2. I don't see this happening in my setup. I also don't see a doubling of processor load when RX2 is on, although I've heard from others that dropouts increase when they are present.

Just a shot in the dark question: What do you have selected for Process Priority in the General-Options tab in Thetis Setup? Mine is set to "Above Normal"

Sorry but I'm at a loss to explain the problem you're having, Phil. Hopefully others might chime in here to offer suggestions. Maybe someone using a transverter (I don't have one to try), although I don't know why using a one would matter.
73,
Chris, W2PA
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby W2PA » Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:07 pm

One more shot in the dark suggestion:
I've noticed that whenever I change sample rate in Thetis I immediately lose all audio streaming, no matter what the setting. This happens nearly every time. I can restore operation by cycling the Start ("Power") button off then on again (cycling MOX restores it, too). Does doing that change things for you?
73,
Chris, W2PA
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby kc2rgw » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:49 pm

Stuff that I’ve run into and set up to fix this.

I have a dedicated GigE link and network for the SDRs, no other traffic on the network, just one SDR runs at a time. Made a big improvement.

Malware Bytes was doing some sort of packet inspection is my assumption, always interfered. Uninstalled that, most problems were gone. I just run the baseline MSFT Defender or whatever they call it, no issues.

Recently the NetworkThrottling registry key put the final polish on my setup.

I do run VAC and found that the Focusrite drivers were just not very stable with my 8i6 3rd gen and tried a Motu M2 and had better results with that and my ancient M-Audio Fastrack interfaces.
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby FM5GB » Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:01 pm

Hi all

Yes I tried tweaking the network card setting in W10 with no luck (using a dedicated NIC for the Orion board with no other client on this). I noticed no change after W10 updates. CPU load increases 50% (x 1.5) when selecting FM mode (this seems a little less since I've increased the RX buffer size in FM). I tried to rise Process Priority till Real Time with no luck either so I went back to Normal.
Audio disappearing after any SR value change seems to be a normal behaviour in Thetis; needs just a Thetis power cycling to correct. This does not affect the dropouts.

I monitored the audio & watched the frame drop indicator on GUI upper left while receiving an 145.000 MHz -30 dBm FM modulated (10kHz deviation, 700 Hz tone in one second pulses). Did this for hours and could not find any procedure which changed the issue (Thetis or even board power cycling, computer restart, killing any background running programs) etc.

So what now ? I am still in the belief that there is a FPGA timing issue on the Orion (MK1) board.

73s Phil FM5GB
Last edited by FM5GB on Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby W2PA » Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:33 pm

Phil,

If your suspicion is correct about timing, perhaps trying a previous version of the FW might have an effect.

They are all here for the Orion Mk1:
https://github.com/TAPR/OpenHPSDR-Firmw ... (ANAN-200D)/previous%20Orion%20NP%20versions
73,
Chris, W2PA
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby FM5GB » Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:54 pm

Ok Chris;

unfortunately the previous versions of FW did nor work on my setup. I had to flash the very latest v1.9 pre4 FW to get out of trouble especially in transverter operation.
I will try to live with it; after all the cracking noises remind the old 33 RPM pop music records when I was a teenager.

More seriously I'm considering the purchase of a Flex 6600 if my purse stands it.

73s Phil FM5GB
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:27 am

Phil,

Try lowering the sampling rate to 192KHz with Protocol 2 and see what happens.

If things get better with P2 at 192KHz then it is most likely a CPU thread blocking problem. If they don't get better it could be a firmware issue and/or a network bottleneck of some kind.

Then try Protocol 1 firmware with Thetis on your Orion MK1 board, it is supported at 192KHz. Compare those results with the previous test. If there is still a problem then it is almost certainly a CPU thread blocking problem because P1 only runs at 100Mbit/s and P1 is unambiguously stable on all hardware. If the problem goes away again it could indicate either a P2 firmware issue or a network bottleneck of some kind when running P2 at 1Gbit/s.

73,

Scott
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Re: Audio popping on strong SSB signal

Postby FM5GB » Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:45 pm

Hi Scott

When I decrease Sample Rate to 192000 or lower all trouble is gone. I had noted that long before. Then I increase SR gradually up to 1536000 while monitoring an FM modulated signal on 145.000 MHz (audio 700 Hz in 1 second pulses FM déviation 10 kHz). I also watch closely the frame drop red light.

Why FM, why 145 MHz , why 1536000 SR ? Because I use my home built transverter to monitor the 2 m FM band. FM is also the mode which produces most processor load (50% that's 1.5 times compared to SSB & CW).

Troubles show up at 758000 SR with some frame drop and very little audio cracks when opening an internet page or lauching a third party software (HRD with Log, KiCad etc). At 758000 SR these dropouts cause little trouble but on max SR and panafall width things become annoying. On SSB and CW there is practically no trouble. and on these mode I don't need the wide band monitoring.
I reduced somewhat (significantly) the trouble by putting the buffer Size in FM to the maximum of 1024 in Setup DSP Options.

I'm reluctant to go back to protocol 1 and PowerSDR as this combination does not meet my needs.

Thanks for your patience and 73s Phil
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