Noise Burst on initial transmit

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rbduck
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby rbduck » Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:37 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:However, what do you mean by "the noise NR2 makes"? While all NR algorithms change the temporal and spectral characteristics of the audio, they don't create new noise.

Meanwhile, it seems pretty clear now that the RX and TX audio pipelines are not being managed appropriately.


A video is worth a thousand words. I have mad a 30 second video clip. That noise that sounds like tubular bells in a barrel. I know this description
isn't as good an example as the video. Please listen and advise me further.

https://youtu.be/CdD1xGLWwgY
73
Ruben
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:49 am

You don't need the noise blanker turned on based on what your panadapter looks like.

However, regardless of that, I'm unable to duplicate that very weird audio sound even with settings identical to yours.

I'm assuming you have the default settings in place for NR2?

Please post your RX EQ so I can duplicate that as well.
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby K1LSB » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:42 am

I get virtually the same results when using NR2, here's my settings:

DSP NR-ANF.PNG
DSP NR-ANF.PNG (165.78 KiB) Viewed 7969 times


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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby PD3LK » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:04 am

Hi, fwiw the only way i can reproduce that sound is to uncheck AE Filter.
73 PD3LK Leon
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby rbduck » Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:44 am

w-u-2-o wrote:You don't need the noise blanker turned on based on what your panadapter looks like.
However, regardless of that, I'm unable to duplicate that very weird audio sound even with settings identical to yours.
I'm assuming you have the default settings in place for NR2?

Please post your RX EQ so I can duplicate that as well.


PD3LK wrote:Hi, fwiw the only way i can reproduce that sound is to uncheck AE Filter.



PD3LK nailed it. When I checked the AE filter that weird ethereal noise disappeared. I don't remember unchecking that at all . As far as I know
everything on that page was set to default values. Nonetheless, I may have unchecked it by accident. (The cat did it). It must have been long ago because NR2 has sounded like that as long as I can remember. What is the AE filter?

Edit: Also ,when it's quiet, I don't run the receive equalizer. Voices sound more natural that way. When it's noisy I run it to get understandability above the noise. That probably has to do with the minor hearing loss I have.

I don't run any noise reduction if the band is relatively quiet. It was very quiet yesterday. Thanks again.
73
Ruben
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:50 am

Thank you, Leon!

Ruben--so are you back to using NR2 now? I'm just asking as an unabashed fan of NR2 ;) I literally never turn it off when working phone, AM or SSB both.

I'm tellin' ya', add S-ATT 1dB at a time until big signal SNR starts to drop, put your AGC gain line about 20dB above the panadapter noise floor, leave NR2 on, and it's nearly FM radio. If the signals are big, turn on squelch. If the signals are small, drop that AGC gain line to about 10dB above the noise floor. It's that simple.

For extra added goodness, I also have an RX EQ curve that emphasizes 1K, 2k and 4K for all the reasons Ruben wrote.

I also use a custom AGC: slope 3, decay and hang 250, fixed gain 66, hang threshold minimum.
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby Tony EI7BMB » Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:59 am

Thanks for the tip on S ATT Scott , makes all the difference.
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby rbduck » Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:58 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:Thank you, Leon!

Ruben--so are you back to using NR2 now? I'm just asking as an unabashed fan of NR2 ;) I literally never turn it off when working phone, AM or SSB both.

I'm tellin' ya', add S-ATT 1dB at a time until big signal SNR starts to drop, put your AGC gain line about 20dB above the panadapter noise floor, leave NR2 on, and it's nearly FM radio. If the signals are big, turn on squelch. If the signals are small, drop that AGC gain line to about 10dB above the noise floor. It's that simple.

For extra added goodness, I also have an RX EQ curve that emphasizes 1K, 2k and 4K for all the reasons Ruben wrote.

I also use a custom AGC: slope 3, decay and hang 250, fixed gain 66, hang threshold minimum.


Scott, NR2 is just what the doctor ordered for noise reduction. There is a world of difference with the AE Filter selected. Again, I say that the
noise reduction capability in Thetis is as good as it gets.

Since the first post in this topic I have learned a world of information about the different methods of reducing noise in Thetis. The settings I have right now are pretty close to perfect for me. I will take your advise about the adjustments on S-ATT. For those of us that have some hearing loss due to age (or whatever), noise of any kind is the main issue for understanding the spoken word. Or anyone for that matter. I think that having the noise reduction functioning correctly will also allow me to reduce the RX1AF level. That in itself greatly contributed to eliminating the "noise burst" issue.

Thanks again and have a great day.
73
Ruben
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby PD3LK » Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:43 pm

Glad i could help :) NR2 is my favourite too, it is one of the best noise suppressors that i know but the NB is very good too.
About a mile from my house there's a car factory. There welding robots produce lot of pulsed QRM, the noise floor jumps like crazy but it disappears completly when i enable NB.
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby K1LSB » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:01 pm

Okay, I give up, what's an AE filter?

Mark

EDIT: Nevermind, I found it. However, mine is checked and I still get that strange audio so checking AE is not the solution for me.
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby rbduck » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:21 pm

PD3LK wrote:Glad i could help :) NR2 is my favorite too, it is one of the best noise suppressors that i know but the NB is very good too.
About a mile from my house there's a car factory. There welding robots produce lot of pulsed QRM, the noise floor jumps like crazy but it disappears completely when i enable NB.


After four hours, NR2 is great. I know the band is sort of quiet anyway, but I can tell already it will help during noisy conditions. It worked well anyway except for that strange noise it made. NB is very good also. I live in the country where the only electrical noise is the steady popping of an electric fence. Now there is a noise that is irritating. NB eliminates it completely.

Most of the time I remember when I enabled or disabled something that created problems. I just don't remember unchecking AE.
Quoting the Thetis user manual here is the description for the AE filter: The AE filter selects the Artefact Elimination filter: this should normally be ticked

I guess that strange noise qualifies as an "artifact"
73
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby PD3LK » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:30 pm

@Mark, can you make a recording like rbduck did?
73 PD3LK Leon
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby K1LSB » Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:57 am

PD3LK wrote:@Mark, can you make a recording like rbduck did?

Leon,

Here ya go (this is only audio, I don't know how to make a video):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lT9Eya ... sp=sharing

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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby PD3LK » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:28 am

Hi Mark, i can reproduce this "metalic" sound when using NR2 and Fast AGC.
It sounds better when using Slow or Long AGC. Regards.
73 PD3LK Leon
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby w-u-2-o » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:29 pm

K1LSB wrote:
PD3LK wrote:@Mark, can you make a recording like rbduck did?

Leon,

Here ya go (this is only audio, I don't know how to make a video):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lT9Eya ... sp=sharing

Mark

In this case I think it's just a question of the limitations of the algorithm, that there are no adjustments that will make it substantially better, and it becomes a personal decision.

There's no question that NR2 creates some artifacts in the sound. All NR algorithms do that. Just like all NR algorithms do a better or worse job of reducing noise.

Ultimately it becomes a question of intelligibility vs. listening fatigue vs. esthetics. This three-cornered trade-off does not work out the same for everyone because much of it is subjective.

For instance, one person may find that NR2 works the best for intelligibility but the artifacts are so esthetically displeasing to them that it makes their listening fatigue worse. Such a person may turn NR2 on and off all the time as required to make the contact easier (or make the contact at all).

Another person, such as myself, may not mind the artifacts at all, and thus finds leaving it on all the time substantially reduces listening fatigue.

You might try adjusting the AGC, the passband width, and/or the RX EQ to see if you can minimize the things you don't like about the sound of NR2. But in this case I don't think you will make any huge improvements.
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby K1LSB » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:55 pm

Scott,

Thank you for the comments. And you're right, sometimes I really don't mind the artifacts (I rather liken it to subdued underwater gurgles) and I have observed that increasing the S-ATT suppresses the gurgles.

And you're also right, in that sometimes I'd rather just turn off NR and listen to the hiss, at least the audio isn't flavored then.

Mark
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby rbduck » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:26 am

After it was pointed out, Yes I hear the artifacts also. They are so minimal that I don't notice it. It is nothing compared to the intensity there is with just the NR selected. I have found that, in very noisy conditions, I can clearly hear and understand what others can't. Even in these noisy conditions with NR2 engaged if I didn't see the noise on the waterfall I wouldn't even know it's there. It is that good. Even on a quiet band NR2 is better than hearing the hiss. It's a matter of personal taste and what you get use to. My wife and son say it's all noise and they can't see how I stand it. :lol:
So, there it is. Thanks to all for your time and input.
73
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby k4fmx » Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:15 am

I am not sure this is the proper place for this but here is the problem that I have.
The radio is a 7000 with protocall 1 and running Thetis. When selecting transmit or tune there is a strong burst of noise like band noise for about a half a second on the transmit signal. I first discovered it running WSJTX. I turned of WSJTX and it was still there. I can get it to go away by turning of VAC but then no audio.
I get the noise when MOX is selected as well but no carrier as there is in tune. Disconnecting the mike makes no difference. I am using the mike input on the front of the radio and the speaker jack on the rear of the radio.
If I check "allow mox to override/bypass vac for phone" that eliminates the noise burst when keying the radio by MOX or tune. This is with the radio in SSB mode. However when going to USBDIG mode the noise is back. Seems anytime you are in the digi mode with audio coming from WSJT the noise burst is there. Actually the noise is still there even if I shut down WSJT.

I have voicemeter virtual audio connections. By the way voicemeter Banana or voicemeter potato will not load. Banana did work at one time until I installed potato, then neither will load. Did the de-install and reinstall and no help.
The virtual audio cables still do work though.

Any ideas?
Thanks
Gary K4FMX
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby w-u-2-o » Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:17 pm

Gary,

This is the perfect place for it. The topic suffered a little thread drift over into NR2 discussions, but this topic, and this one:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3618

deal with your subject.

It appears that you've got two, separate problems that you are working with.

First, there is a bug in the software that does not zero the transmit audio buffer at PTT time when using the mic input on the hardware unit and it's internal CODEC. If the shack is very noisy, receiver volume is high, and microphone gain is high, it is easy to fill that buffer with junk, and that junk comes roaring out of the buffer in front of your desired audio. And you've discovered the work-around for it. If you ever use a PTT switch you'll need to enable the override/bypass option for that also. So that problem is "fixed".

Second, it seems you've got issues with noise bursts on VAC. This is almost always the result of a configuration problem with external virtual audio software. It's a good bet that in order to fix this you've first got to fix your underlying problem with Voicemeeter. You've got to find away to get it completely uninstalled, then get a good fresh install in place. This by itself might fix your problem. If not, then at the very least it will allow you to change your configuration to something that is correct with help from folks on this forum.

For the Voicemeeter install problem, I recommend you look to the VB Audio Forum.

73,

Scott
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby rbduck » Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:03 pm

Since the origination of this topic the "Noise Burst on initial transmit" problem I had has evolved slightly. I was seeing that noise burst at the beginning of every transmission. Initially I had added a higher than normal RF delay at setting at the General>Options tab to help alleviate the issue. Last week I started a totally unrelated topic about my VOX settings. On that issue, my microphone level was set way too high for VOX to work properly. When I reduced the microphone gain, not only did it fix the VOX issue, it also solved the mystery of the noise burst. The noise burst was sound that was entering the audio chain via the microphone. That microphone was supplying the sound for that burst of noise

I don't want to make this confusing. Since I backed my microphone gain down to zero at the Audio>VAC1 tab. The noise burst is completely gone.
Maybe this will help you with part of your problem.
73
Ruben
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby k4fmx » Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:57 pm

Hi guys, thanks for the info.
I still have the problem.
I uninstalled voicemeter and reinstalled yet again. It now loads ok and I can select different options. But I can not get any audio into WSJT thru voicemeter. As soon as I shut down voicemeter the audio goes to WSJT and it works.

WSJT also works on TX but I still get the inital noise burst when it keys up. The noise is the band noise with WSJT receive signals that lasts about a half second.

It is not being picked up by the mike as I can unplug the mike and no difference in the noise.
I can also shut down WSJT and I still get the noise burst (just band noise no signals) on keyup via MOX, This is of course with the boxes unchecked that mute the audio in SSB mode. Radio in usbdig mode.

It seems the noise is coming from the voicemeter virtual cable program as that is the only thing feeding vac at the time. That or it is in the vac chain?

Thanks for the help
Gary K4FMX
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:57 am

Gary: you need help with virtual audio set up. Start a new topic in this sub-forum,

viewforum.php?f=13

and we'll see if we can sort you out.
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby k4fmx » Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:19 pm

I found the noise burst problem.
I had thetis and wsjt connected to the same vaio input. I now have the vaio in and out connected to thetis and wsjt connected to voicemeter aux in and out as follows:

Thetis setup:
Driver- MME
Input- voicemeter output
Output- voicemeter input

Wsjt setup:
Input- voicemeter AUX output
Output- voicemeter AUX input

If a mike is used on the PC it gets connected to the first hardware input and B1 button is selected to send it to thetis.

Buttons selected on virtual section: Vaio-(B1)
A1, B1, B2

Virtual Aux (b2) buttons
B1

When using wsjt there is feedback from the mike circuit that caused the noise burst. So if the B1 button is disabled on first virtual channel (B1), that will kill the noise on wsjt keyup. B1 button here is bringing mike audio into thetis.
The noise burst is from a buffer emptying out and not just audio picked up from the mike.

The noise burst can be seen when selecting MOX on the radio, same as when it goes into TX from wsjt.

You must reselect the B1 button when going back to SSB for mike audio from the PC.

You are right Scott, the designations in voicemter are terrible!

This noise may be a rather wide spread problem as I often hear that noise burst when listening to wsjt on the bands. On some stations it is quite strong.

73
Gary K4FMX
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby w-u-2-o » Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:06 am

k4fmx wrote:I found the noise burst problem.

Good to read. I had suspected it was a Voicemeeter configuration problem.

When using wsjt there is feedback from the mike circuit that caused the noise burst. So if the B1 button is disabled on first virtual channel (B1), that will kill the noise on wsjt keyup. B1 button here is bringing mike audio into thetis.

That B1 send is not the send you need to get mic audio into Thetis. You need to enable the B1 send on hardware input #1, and you already said you did that. If you are looking to get audio from a mic that is plugged into the ANAN, you'll need to use one of the "override" options in the Thetis VAC setup.

You must reselect the B1 button when going back to SSB for mike audio from the PC.

No.

You are right Scott, the designations in voicemter are terrible!

Yes, I don't understand why they just didn't call them "Virtual 1, Virtual 2, Virtual 3".
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby k4fmx » Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:22 am

"That B1 send is not the send you need to get mic audio into Thetis. You need to enable the B1 send on hardware input #1, and you already said you did that. If you are looking to get audio from a mic that is plugged into the ANAN, you'll need to use one of the "override" options in the Thetis VAC setup."

Yes i do have the B! send button selected on the first hardware 1 input to get PC mike audio to thetis. i also have to select B1 send button on the virtual channel to get the mike audio into thetis. But when it is selected here it causes the noise on wsjt. Disabling B1 send button on vertial channel 1 kills the noise.

I understand about the override option when plugging a mike directly into the Anan.

Thanks
Gary K4FMX
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby w-u-2-o » Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:15 pm

k4fmx wrote:i also have to select B1 send button on the virtual channel to get the mike audio into thetis. But when it is selected here it causes the noise on wsjt. Disabling B1 send button on vertial channel 1 kills the noise.

You do not, repeat NOT, need the B1 send button activated on the Thetis virtual channel assigned to Thetis to get microphone audio in.

If you cannot get microphone audio into Thetis without the B1 send on the Thetis virtual channel activated then you are doing something wrong.

I took my (rather complex) Voicemeeter setup and stripped it down to to its barest essentials to prove it works. I can make a video if you like to further prove it.

Assuming your microphone is on hardware input 1, and your speakers are on hardware output A1, for phone:

1. On hardware input 1 channel you need ONLY the SINGLE Bx send activated, where "x" is 1, 2 or 3, depending on which virtual channel Thetis VAC1 is assigned to.

2. On the virtual channel assigned to Thetis you need ONLY the A1 send activated to send audio to the A1 hardware output.

That's it.

You should never, EVER activate a send that is the same as the channel it is on UNLESS you are using the Patch Inserts/Voicemeeter Insert Virtual ASIO to loop audio out to and back from a DAW or other VST host.

This works perfectly for phone. It is all you need for phone. If this is not working for you then you have done something else wrong. Please excuse the fact that I have Thetis on B3 instead of B1, but I really didn't want to change my channel assignments as well for this example.

Capture2.JPG
Capture2.JPG (324.78 KiB) Viewed 5738 times
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby k4fmx » Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:37 am

Hi Scott, thanks for your help. I think that I have it figured out now. The problem was that I had 2 mikes, one on the computer and another plugged Into the radio directly. Switching back and forth caused confusion on my part. The radio mike would not work unless the B1 on the first virtual channel (thetis) was active. This also coupled the noise burst on key-up.

I discovered in the thetis manual that you have to turn off VAC1 when using the mike on the radio. Also the B1 should not be active (ever) on the first virtual channel as you have said.

I now have B1 active on the first hardware channel for the computer mike when used and VAC1 on.
I have thetis on the first virtual channel with A1 active to send receive audio to the A1 hardware output for the speakers.
and B2 active on that channel to send receive audio to WSJT input.
WSJT is on the second virtual channel with B1 active there to send audio out to thetis from WSJT.

Every thing seems to work fine and there is no longer any noise burst when using WSJT on keyup.
I do need to disable the computer mike when using WSJT.

Thanks
Gary K4FMX
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:45 pm

k4fmx wrote:I discovered in the thetis manual that you have to turn off VAC1 when using the mike on the radio.
The manual is not 100% correct. That is what the "override/bypass" controls are for. You can leave VAC enabled, using the computer mic, and if you want to use the mic attached to the ANAN simply make sure that the override option of choice is checked and use that specific PTT method to activate it.

Using that approach, or just turning off VAC, the B1 send on the first virtual channel is NEVER required.

I do need to disable the computer mike when using WSJT.
Of course you do. Glad to see you are getting the hang of it. If you buy a fancy PC audio interface like a Behringer UMC202 (or Steinberg, or Focusrite, or M-Audio, or Presonus) you can plug a full-on professional mic right into it and just switch over to that in Voicemeeter.
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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby rdwing » Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:47 am

I'd like to focus this back to the fact that even with mics plugged directly into the Anan, if you use a hardware PTT you can get a noise burst at the beginning of the transmission, even without VAC. I am seeing this on a brand new 7000 MK3.
Maybe the buffer issue still needs to get resolved. Is there a buglist that contains all of these fixes/improvements somewhere?
This might also be the DEXP noise burst issue located here -> viewtopic.php?p=21157#p21157

This shows up really badly with CW, via CWX. I'm sending at 20 WPM, and its the same no matter the QSK setting.

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Re: Noise Burst on initial transmit

Postby w-u-2-o » Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:28 pm

@rdwing

There are two separate things going on here:

1. Your concerns about a noise burst at the start of a phone transmission. This is not something others have been able to duplicate with any reliability, although there is some evidence that there may be an issue with DEXP/VOX processing of audio from the built-in CODEC (but not VAC). However that is well covered in the other topic in which you replied so should not be duplicated here.

2. Your concerns about CW related problems. Those concerns deserve their own, unique, separate topic, since they shouldn't be lumped in with the other "noise burst" topics as those deal exclusively with phone. Please start a new topic about "CW noise bursts", that way the CW folks will take notice and ideally join in the discussion.

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