Angelia (100D) users of Thetis & Protocol 1 Firmware: note these LPF settings

g1fxe
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Angelia (100D) users of Thetis & Protocol 1 Firmware: note these LPF settings

Postby g1fxe » Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:51 pm

Please see down near the bottom of this topic how Peter made a change that works around a firmware issue that would otherwise cause improper LPF assignments--73, Scott

Hi all,

As posted in the 'Everything else...' section of the community I have been experiencing problems with the Power Output of my very early model Grey protocol 1 Anan 100d. Some background:

Typically I only run 20-30 watts however one day when testing with FT8 I noticed my output as measured by Powersdr mrx (Thetis does come up further down) disappearing to zero. Checking the PA Values in the setup/PA settings/Watt meter tab I could see that the power was folding back due to the SWR spiking at a very high value occasionally. This was traced to a faulty co-ax lead between the rig and my external Power/SWR meter.
New BNC to PL259 lead made up and all is well. Lesson one learnt.

So, I decided to check the PA by performing a PA calibration. This showed that whilst I could achieve full power on the lower bands. 30 metres and 17 to 10 metres were unable to achieve full power. I wondered if this was firmware related so tried the next firmware version, similar result.
Is this a Powersdr mrx problem ? Tried Thetis similar low power on some bands but different values than with Powersdr mrx.

So, I tried every version of Firmware from 5.7 to 6.0 with both Powersdr mrx & Thetis. The results are plotted on the spreadsheet below.
Interestingly sometimes Powersdr mrx produced better power on the affected bands other times Thetis did.
Sometimes, depending on the firmware version Thetis would only get 12 metres to 50 or so watts !

Like another poster on the forum I noticed that the DC Lead fuse holder was warm. I have never liked the DC lead it is too rigid, has sharp zip ties and is generally of poor quality. So today I made a new one using a flexible silicon rubber cable, omitting the fuse holder (the lead is fused at my Powerpole powerstrip).
Bingo full Power on all bands when using Powersdr mrx, I tried the earliest and latest firmware versions I had.

But with Thetis whilst all other bands achieve full output I cannot achieve more than 70 watts on 12 metres.

I'm not concerned about this because as stated I typically run 20-30 watts but I would like to know why Thetis struggles with my 12 metre output when Powersdr mrx doesn't ?

Anybody else experienced this ?

Cheers, Peter.....G1FXE
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Power Output Woes (Largely solved)

Postby w-u-2-o » Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:56 pm

I'm suspicious that Thetis may not be selecting the 10/12M LPF properly, possibly dependent on which revision RF board you have. If it's an early model 100D, does it have the older Rev 15/16 RF board? See here for a little more info and a pointer to the schematics:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3407

It would be unfortunate to discover that it is only working correct on Rev. 24 RF boards.

Can you post a screen shot of what Setup > General > Ant/Filters > BPF shows when on 12M?
g1fxe
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Re: Power Output Woes (Largely solved)

Postby g1fxe » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:23 am

w-u-2-o wrote:I'm suspicious that Thetis may not be selecting the 10/12M LPF properly, possibly dependent on which revision RF board you have. If it's an early model 100D, does it have the older Rev 15/16 RF board? See here for a little more info and a pointer to the schematics:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3407

It would be unfortunate to discover that it is only working correct on Rev. 24 RF boards.

Can you post a screen shot of what Setup > General > Ant/Filters > BPF shows when on 12M?


I got my rig direct from the factory when they were first released. No idea what revision of board it has though.
I'll post the screenshot you suggest first thing in the morning.

Also, I'll see if I can identify the rf board as soon as I can.

Thanks for responding to my query so quickly.

Cheers, Peter......G1FXE
g1fxe
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Re: Power Output Woes (Largely solved)

Postby g1fxe » Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:45 am

w-u-2-o wrote:Can you post a screen shot of what Setup > General > Ant/Filters > BPF shows when on 12M?

Scott,

Screenshot attached as requested.

One thing I noted this morning when playing further:

Even though the Band filter ranges are identical between PSDR & Thetis in my install it does appear that PSDR pairs 12metres with 15metres whereas Thetis pairs 12metres with 10metres.

Or should I say when changing from 15metres to 12metres in PSDR there is no relay click heard whereas when changing from 12metres to 10 metres in PSDR a Click is heard. The opposite applies in Thetis.

Note: When I reset the database in PSDR the Band filter ranges differ from my norm (which matches Thetis) but full power is achieved on every band in PSDR regardless of what the switch points are set at (Custom or Default).


The more I look into this the more confused I become :?

Cheers, Peter..... G1FXE
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Power Output Woes (Largely solved)

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:09 pm

g1fxe wrote:Or should I say when changing from 15metres to 12metres in PSDR there is no relay click heard whereas when changing from 12metres to 10 metres in PSDR a Click is heard. The opposite applies in Thetis.
As you point out, that makes no sense.

One thing to look at in PowerSDR: you'll note the two settings, "Firmware" and "Manual". In Firmware mode code in the firmware will look at the tuned TX frequency and make its own decision about what LPF to select. In "Manual" mode it uses the table on the setup page to make those decisions. In Thetis it only has "Manual" mode.

You might play with PowerSDR and see if you can get it to mimic Thetis. That might offer a clue.
g1fxe
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Re: Power Output Woes (Largely solved)

Postby g1fxe » Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:06 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:One thing to look at in PowerSDR: you'll note the two settings, "Firmware" and "Manual". In Firmware mode code in the firmware will look at the tuned TX frequency and make its own decision about what LPF to select. In "Manual" mode it uses the table on the setup page to make those decisions. In Thetis it only has "Manual" mode.

You might play with PowerSDR and see if you can get it to mimic Thetis. That might offer a clue.


Scott, yes I managed to get PSDR to mimic the issue with 12metres in Thetis. Selecting Manual on the LPF tab results in the same 'low' power.

The default (with fresh database) in PDSR is that 'Firmware' is selected in which it appears that 12Metres is switched with 15metres resulting in full power on 12metres.

Particularly strange considering I get full power on 10metres. I would have thought an issue resulting in low power on 12 would result in the same on 10 (when in manual) ?

Below is a screenshot of the PSDR default database LPF tab. Frequency ranges are slightly different than Thetis but still don't account for the issue in Manual.

Rgds, Peter.....G1FXE
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Power Output Woes (Largely solved)

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:55 pm

Peter,

That's very interesting, to observe the same bug in PowerSDR as in Thetis when PowerSDR is set to "manual" and therefore to mimic Thetis.

Just a crazy idea: swap the frequency ranges assigned to the 17/15 and 12/10 filters. See what happens.

73,

Scott
g1fxe
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Re: Power Output Woes (Largely solved)

Postby g1fxe » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:08 am

w-u-2-o wrote:Peter,

That's very interesting, to observe the same bug in PowerSDR as in Thetis when PowerSDR is set to "manual" and therefore to mimic Thetis.

Just a crazy idea: swap the frequency ranges assigned to the 17/15 and 12/10 filters. See what happens.

73,
Scott


Scott,

Unsurprisingly when the upper edge of the 17m/15m range is adjusted to include 12m full power is achieved on 12metres.

Nice to see that when you adjust one band filter upper range the lower edge of the next band adjusts to compensate. IE. I changed 17m/15m upper limit and the 15m/12m lower limit 'changed itself'.

I suppose the big questions is, is this a fault with the manual selection of LPF's (or the range assignments) in PSDR & Thetis, a firmware bug or a hardware issue with the Anan 100d or a combination of the last 2.
My guess is we'll never know. For curiosity sake I might see if I can find the release notes for the historic firmware release to see if Band/LPF assignments are mentioned.

Thanks for indulging me in this head scratcher.

Peter.....G1FXE
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g1fxe
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Re: Power Output Woes (Largely solved)

Postby g1fxe » Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:00 am

Not having much luck tracing older firmware release notes but did find this:

http://lists.openhpsdr.org/pipermail/hpsdr-openhpsdr.org/2014-February/044830.html

If I read this correctly Joe made a change to the firmware way back when to correct a low power issue on 12metres because the Anan 100d (Angelia) needs different LPF switch points than the Hermes rigs. I guess the 'manual' switch points by default are the 'Hermes standard' in both PSDR & Thetis ?

This seems to tie up with my problem. In Lieu of the missing 'Firmware' switch on the filters tab in Thetis it appears that amending the ranges
as I did in the previous post is the way to go.

Peter.....G1FXE
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Power Output Woes (Largely solved)

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:11 pm

That's really great work, Peter!

I'm going to rename this topic and tack it in the Thetis forum so that other Angelia users can find it in the future.

Does anyone have any data to show that this is an issue for P2 firmware like it is for the P1 firmware?
g1fxe
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Re: Power Output Woes (Largely solved)

Postby g1fxe » Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:39 pm

w-u-2-o wrote:That's really great work, Peter!

I'm going to rename this topic and tack it in the Thetis forum so that other Angelia users can find it in the future.

Does anyone have any data to show that this is an issue for P2 firmware like it is for the P1 firmware?


Scott,

Just a minor correction. In my mind this is not a firmware issue. The P1 firmware was changed to use the correct LPF switch points
(as recommended by the factory), it is Thetis (and Powersdr mrx when in manual LPF mode) that are using the incorrect switch points for Angelia based rigs.
In Thetis this could be tackled by re-introducing the Firmware switch or by enforcing the corrected ranges by band when the Anan 100d is
selected during setup.

Peter.....G1FXE
MabsA
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Re: Angelia (100D) users of Thetis & Protocol 1 Firmware: note these LPF settings

Postby MabsA » Sat May 15, 2021 6:42 am

Good Day,

I think I'm seeing similair issues with my Blue Faced 100

i.e. the corrrect filers being swtiched in/out

This is most noticable 30-50MHz, and Sub 1,8Mhz (I loose MF broadcast.)

I'm for the time being using SDR Consiole,

Normal setup is Anan 100, P2, reporting v10.7 with Thetis 2.8.11

73
MarkA

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