Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

W2QO-Jamie
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Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby W2QO-Jamie » Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:57 pm

Have a 7000DLE MKII with 2.0b Protocol 2 firmware and 2.6.9 Thetis.

Making contacts with WSJT-X using VAC and seeing horizontal wide glitches in my transmitted signal (Duplex ON). I thought it was a VAC problem but it persisted with VAC (Eugene) and VB-Cables.

I assumed it was a VAC cable problem but to my surprise when I turn off VAC and use the TUNE button in Thetis I see the same thing:

Tune glitches with duplex on.PNG
Tune glitches with duplex on.PNG (978.79 KiB) Viewed 12879 times


What might be the cause of this?

Jamie W2QO
w9mdb
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby w9mdb » Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:06 pm

Looks like dropouts. One thing I'd like to see you try is use Task Manager CPU Affinity to turn off CPU 0 for Thetis and see if it makes a difference.
Using the Latency Indepth test I've seen every computer having long latency times on CPU 0 compare to the other CPUs as it seems every driver wants to use CPU 0 or some such thing.

de Mike W9MDB
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W2QO-Jamie
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby W2QO-Jamie » Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:33 pm

Mike,

Thanks for the quick reply and the help!

Only the Tight Loop Latency Test at Dispatch Level showed much higher values on CPU 0and CPU1. (6-core Xeon with Hyperthreading on.

I think using Process Hacker to turn off the affinity for CPU0 in Thetis may have reduced the the number of gltches somewhat. But the issue does still exist.

--Jamie, W2QO
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby W2QO-Jamie » Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:35 pm

Does this indicate an an actual problem with the transmitted signal or a problem monitoring the transmitted signal?

Jamie, W2QO
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby w9mdb » Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:35 pm

Look for audiodg.exe too and also disable CPU 0.

Mike
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby W2QO-Jamie » Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:42 pm

Mike,

I had to run Process hacker as Administrator to do that but I did it. However the issue continues.

Again thanks for the help.

Jamie, W2QO
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby w9mdb » Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:51 pm

Have you tried the different audio drivers in Thetis yet?

Also..check out WinTimerTest and LatencyMon to see what they tell you.

What CPU/Motherboard do you have?

Mike
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby W2QO-Jamie » Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:17 pm

Mike,

The Motherboard is an ASRockX58 Extreme3 with a 6-core Xeon W3690 running at 3.466 MHz with Hyperthreading enabled.

Wintimertester shows a QPC/GTC ratio of 1.000 after running for several minutes. Forgot to add, the QueryPerformanceFrequency is 14.21818 MHz if that was what you were looking for.

LatencyMonitor and DPCLat both show the system is suitable for real time audio applications with no change in that over extended periods of time. (It took a lot of work to get to that point).

I have been alternately using both VAC 4.62 and VB-Cable virtual audio cables but VAC is turned off completely in Thetis. With VAC off how would changing audio drivers affect this or are you referring to something else?

Thanks again,
Jamie, W2QO
Last edited by W2QO-Jamie on Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
W2QO-Jamie
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby W2QO-Jamie » Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:18 pm

The CPU is a W3690
w9mdb
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby w9mdb » Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:20 pm

In the VAC setup you can pick different drivers.
It defaults to MME I think so try the others.

Mike
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby W2QO-Jamie » Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:30 pm

Mike,

I'm having the problem with VAC turned off so I guess I don't understand how would changing from MME to Windows DirectSound say affect the use of the Tune button in Thetis with the enable VAC1 checkbox unchecked?

In any event I changed from MME to Windows DirectSound and left VAC unchecked and the issue persists.

Thanks again,

Jamie, W2QO
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby w9mdb » Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:09 pm

Yeah...you're right...VAC shouldn't matter in that case.

Somebody else would have answer if the DUP is showing the loopback from the rig which is what I would imagine it is.

If you look at the WWV signal do you see dropouts there too?

What do you have for your other audio settings? Buffer size? Sample Rate? Buffer Latency?

Mike
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby w9mdb » Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:10 pm

Also...you do have a gigabit switch I guess....have you tried plugging directly into the rig instead of through the switch?

Mike
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby W2QO-Jamie » Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:32 pm

Mike,

Yes, I have a Dell unmanaged gigabit switch with CAT7 double shielded LAN cabling to the 7000 and to the PC. I'm not seeing any positive or negative SEQ errors, so probably no packets lost between the radio and the PC and vice versa.

I can however install another Ethernet card and re-configure things next time I'm crawling around underneath my desk.

I don't notice anything funky looking at WWV.

Thanks again,

Jamie, W2QO
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby w9mdb » Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:46 pm

And your audio setttings are....????
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby W2QO-Jamie » Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:03 pm

Mike,

At this very moment, I am using WSJT-X and so I have the VAC turned back on again. SO:

Current VAC audio settings.PNG
Current VAC audio settings.PNG (34.66 KiB) Viewed 12843 times


What is the significance of these audio settings when the VAC audio is OFF and the problem still occurs. There must be something I don't understand if the disabled audio settings make a difference.

Thanks for persevering,

Jamie, W2QO
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby w9mdb » Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:28 pm

The buffer latency could have some effect.

Two things....turn on the "Force" boxes and try Manual for the latency boxes.
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby W2QO-Jamie » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:27 pm

Hi Mike

In Protocol 1, under the Audio Tab, there was Primary, VAC 1 and VAC 2. Primary looked to be some kind of sound card equivalent:

Protocol 1 Primary Sound Card Setup.PNG
Protocol 1 Primary Sound Card Setup.PNG (23.02 KiB) Viewed 12826 times


I'm guessing the Protocol 2 equivalent of the Primary Audio is what the TUNE signal travels over and that if there's an audio problem as you are suggesting then the Primary Audio is where the problem would be and not the disabled Vac 1 settings. But I am only guessing.

Thanks again,

Jamie, W2QO
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby w9mdb » Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:28 am

Try increasing the buffer size and if that doesn't work decrease the sample rate.

Mike
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby ramdor » Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:25 pm

If possible, try to use the DirectX engine, and drop desired frame rate so that the red box top left goes away. If you are unable to run directX then use GDI+ and lower desired frame rate in the same way. Having that red box top left is not good, especially when in GDI+ mode. If you have to use GDI+ drop the desired frame rate to 5-10 below when that red box starts showing. DirectX doesn't matter quite as much, but is a good idea for it not to show.

Annotation 2020-03-03 192307.png
Annotation 2020-03-03 192307.png (18 KiB) Viewed 12758 times


Note: it will always show if your desired FPS is higher than your vsync rate if that is selected (directX)

Richie.
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby W2QO-Jamie » Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:24 pm

Thank you.

I have to confess to not knowing about those settings nor of knowing what the red square meant.

I have switched to DirectX and the red square went away.

Should the change have a favorable effect on the problem I have been experiencing or was it just an unrelated issue you spotted?

Again, thanks for the help.

Jamie, W2QO
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby ramdor » Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:40 pm

W2QO-Jamie wrote:Should the change have a favorable effect on the problem I have been experiencing or was it just an unrelated issue you spotted?


You will have to let me know ;) When that red square is shown in GDI+ display mode, the Thetis main thread is bogged down and is unable to service the frame rate required. You would have noticed that the UI (settings especially) would have been slow to redraw amongst other things.

Running in DirectX mode will offload a bunch of work to the graphics card and may free up enough cpu time to make the glitches you see less frequent.

Let us know if anything improves. Generally, it is best practice not to see that red box at all, ever.

Richie.
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby W2QO-Jamie » Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:59 pm

Thanks for the response.

OK, I haven't seen the red box since changing to DirectX. Current FPS is 60.

It was my distinct impression that there were and are fewer horizontal bursts after changing to DirectX.

Would changing the FPS setting lower be of benefit when there is not a red box?

Would there be a benefit to changing the display thread priority up or down from normal?

I did some testing this morning prior to changing the display type to DirectX and with the only application running being Thetis (and ignoring all the usual Windows services, etc.) I was still seeing some (not many) horizontal bursts when pressing the TUN button in DUP mode. There were no positive or negative SEQ errors and Thetis CPU utilization was in the 10% vicinity.

Anything else I should be looking for?

Thanks very much for quick lesson.

Jamie, W2QO
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby ramdor » Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:09 pm

As long as the red box isnt showing it should be ok. Also perhaps reduce the rx sample rate as another test.

2.png
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby Tony EI7BMB » Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:59 pm

I notice this happens some times if I open up a separate tab in Firefox for PSK reporter or similar . I run an 8 core AMD 1700 CPU
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Re: Glitches in TUNE signal viewed with Duplex on

Postby laserbill » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:26 pm

Just curious what version of windows are you running and do you see glitching on the DC spike at 0KHz?
If it does, It sounds like a very similar problem I had when my PC automaticity upgraded to Win 10 Ver2004
I had to roll back to Win 10 Ver1909 to fix it

Regards
Bill

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