Thetis and CW Skimmer

w2gs
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Re: 2.6.9

Postby w2gs » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:07 pm

Thetis and CWSkimmer issues


Hi Scott, Samuel and others who have commented

I will post this to the Apache forums. Here is an example of the Thetis/CWSkimmer issue.

1. All the sample rates have been set to 48K. I tried faster sample rates (results were no better) but to remove a lot of variables I used 48K for the rig, VAC and CWS.

2. In order for CWS to track the rig frequency the CWS audio IF has to be set to -600HZ. This is opposite to HPSDR where +600 HZ is used. All previous versions of HPSDR used +600Hz

3. Notice there is a solid line about 600HZ above the selected frequency of 14025.560 on the CWS waterfall. This doesn't appear in HPSDR when using Windows WDM-KS. This artifact will blot out any signal in this area.

4. Looking at both the panadapter and the CWS waterfall you can see that there are five strong signals from 14026KHz to 14030KHz but only one signal at 140295KHZ shows up on the CWS waterfall. This signal doesn't correspond to anything in the Thetis panadapter.

5. On the panadapter waterfall there is the remains of signal about 600Hz above 14025.560. This signal was blotted out by the artifact in CWS that appears at around 14026.2.

I am not sure what's going on here but I would not think there were many changes made in this area of the Thetis software since all this working properly under HPSDR, VAC and CWS. This may be a timing issue or a sample rate problem; I can only speculate. I would be happy to test any changes to the software to resolve the above problems. I know that there may be higher priority issues the developers are working on but sooner or later this should be addressed.

73, George
W2GS
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CWSkimmer1.PNG
CWSkimmer1.PNG (3.49 MiB) Viewed 5045 times
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w-u-2-o
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Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:27 pm

George,

Please post screen shots of your VAC setup and your CW Skimmer setup pages.

Thanks,

Scott
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby NN3RP » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:33 am

My CWS / Thetis works without the offending line / bar across as mentioned here. The only issue that I am having is displaying the frequency (CAT settings) on CWS, however. I have tried Kenwoood, TS2000, PowerSDR with COM Pairs to no avail. Once I can have it display, I will confirm frequency accuracy on both Anan 7000dle MKII I7 and CWS.

Note: I do remember having this working perfectly with Thetis a while ago. Despite having screen shots of the past settings, I cannot make it display so far.

Never Give In, Never Give Up!
Rafael / NN3RP
Nation's Capital USA
w2gs
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby w2gs » Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:30 pm

With the help of Greg KC8IIR a solution was found to the unwanted artifact and missing signal problem. The VAC settings that work with HPSDR don't work properly with Thetis. Also CWSkimer settings had to be changed to reverse the waterfall display. I have attached the settings that work with my Anan 8000.

Two addition files are in a following post showing the settings of CWS. Unfortunately I must have reached attachment limit. It would have been nice to have all this information in one post but it should follow this one.

73, George
W2GS
Attachments
Thetis Audio VAC tab.PNG
Thetis Audio VAC tab.PNG (186.95 KiB) Viewed 4604 times
Thetis VAC.PNG
Thetis VAC.PNG (185.8 KiB) Viewed 4604 times
w2gs
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby w2gs » Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:34 pm

Attached are the Radio and Audio tab from CWSkimmer that are need to completely resolve the subject problem. See the previous post for VAC and Thetis settings.
73, George
W2GS
Attachments
Thetis CWS Radio tab.PNG
Thetis CWS Radio tab.PNG (38.66 KiB) Viewed 4604 times
Thetis CWS Audio tab.PNG
Thetis CWS Audio tab.PNG (40.09 KiB) Viewed 4604 times
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:45 pm

Thanks for posting this, George.
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w9ac
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby w9ac » Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:54 pm

Scott,

In the Skimmer setup menu, I only see sound card options for MME and WDM. Does this mean ASIO drivers won't work with Skimmer? I only see transmit profiles in Thetis so I'm assuming that a separate sound card profile for Skimmer isn't possible? Yikes, I would hate to go back to using VAC for CW Skimmer.

Paul, W9AC
w2gs
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby w2gs » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:38 am

Paul,
For skimmer to work with PSDR/HPSDR/Thetis you need I/Q quadrature signals. I don't think ASIO provides that type of signal (could be wrong). The only options in skimmer are MME or WDM. If are using a non SDR like an ICOM etc. skimmer will use direct audio (WDM) but the waterfall bandwidth is limited to about 3KHZ across the waterfall. I haven't used a conventional radio for a long time but I remember the performance was not very good. I use a USB interface for SSB and just switch between ASIO and WDM. Both HPSDR and Thetis handle the switching without any problems.
73, George
W2GS
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby w-u-2-o » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:07 pm

George is absolutely correct. ASIO, and Voicemeeter, is, unfortunately, not a good solution for moving IQ data via the VAC interface. You will have to resort good old Muzy VAC.
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby NN3RP » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:57 pm

To all Happy New Year!

George, can you possibly post the settings for CAT in CWS (OmniRig) / Thetis?

I am using VSPE for port creation and I can manage to interface Thetis to other software, i.e., N1MM, WSJTX, etc. but not using OmniRig.
Rafael / NN3RP
Nation's Capital USA
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby NN3RP » Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:36 pm

I have figured out why OmnyRig's CAT cannot connect to CWSkimmer so that it displays Thetis frequency read out. All it takes is the creation of a Connector and a Splitter. Additional Pairs can be added if needed for TX, i.e., PTT or CW. I used the VSPE eulation software.

In the sample picture attached, I set COM20 as the Connector. This port is set in Thetis / Setup / CAT. I also created a Split set COM20 <=> COM10. COM10 is the set that is used in all of the software, i.e., CWSkimmer, N1MM, etc.

The following picture will demonstrated all of the settings. I hope this can assist others in getting CWS to display the Thetis frequency and be dead-on spot when clicking either waterfall.

73s

CWS_Thetis_settings.jpg
CWS_Thetis_settings.jpg (346.9 KiB) Viewed 4507 times
Rafael / NN3RP
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby K9RX » Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:37 pm

NN3RP (no name at the end) ... can you provide links for these pictures please? - the pertinent ones (not sure why there is a cable/coin in the one) ... these are not readable as is.

thanks

Gary
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby NN3RP » Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:45 pm

Hi, Gary and good morning all!

The system does not allow but only three (3) pics in one shot? So I took a snapshot of all of the snapshots and the penny and cable is part of the desktop...hihi.

I will try and see if I can post pics in several posts....or link to a Word document that I've created...stay tuned!

Rafael / NN3RP
Rafael / NN3RP
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby NN3RP » Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:10 pm

As promise, here is a Word document with the main pics and notations:

Thetis Setup with Skimmer.docx
(462.8 KiB) Downloaded 110 times


or...here is a OneDrive link showing all of the snapshots taken in the production.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Al_5NCnHQyKatBsSWk_zb1StQhRR?e=OryL47
Rafael / NN3RP
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w2gs
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby w2gs » Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:32 pm

Here are my Omni Rig settings in CWSkimmer.
73, George
W2GS
Attachments
Thetis CWS Omnirig.PNG
Thetis CWS Omnirig.PNG (23.68 KiB) Viewed 4452 times
Helmut
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby Helmut » Thu May 14, 2020 3:04 pm

I was testing CWSkimmer 2.1 with my 7000dleMK2 / Thetis 2.7.0 a3 / Firmware Protocol_2_v2.0b.rbf with the Virtual Audio Cable from E. Muzychenko
Version 4.60 and the Skimmer looks like the picture I found on SM7SJR tutorial - so there are awful artifacts with every decoded stream.

I saw on the Flex Radio the stream (IQ with DAX) is without this artifacts vy clear also at lower filter-bandwidth.

My question to the writers of the tutorial here is - does it look like this ?
Is there a difference between 4.60 and 4.62 on VAC in the behave of the artifacts ?

thetis-skimmer-scaled.jpg
thetis-skimmer-scaled.jpg (95.71 KiB) Viewed 2374 times


Thank you and stay safe
Helmut oe9eri / dl9eri
Last edited by Helmut on Thu May 14, 2020 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby NN3RP » Thu May 14, 2020 5:09 pm

Helmut, good day to you and yours.

Looks like something has too much audio gain.

I reopened my file and followed the pictures to redo each of the steps one by one. I do not see that blurriness on the decoding window after I launched Thetis / CW skimmer. Unable to replicate.

My version of the VAC is 4.15...Not able to tell what / if any difference as I don't have the latest.
Rafael / NN3RP
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Helmut
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby Helmut » Thu May 14, 2020 5:27 pm

Thank you, Rafael

When I was testing the setup with the turorial, I could not find - how to reduce the level of the IQ-stream.

In Win10/64 the SOUND setup, where you can change the sampling-rate and the level - there was no reaction to see on the Skimmer waterfall.

Do you see a way to change this level in the IQ-stream flow through the PC ?

I would be vy happy to get CWskimmer to work with IQ and clear signals in the waterfall !

Thank you for your good tutorial and also to George W2GS - my be he will respond here again.

73, Helmut
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby w-u-2-o » Thu May 14, 2020 6:30 pm

Try changing RX gain in Setup > Audio > VAC1.
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby NN3RP » Thu May 14, 2020 7:10 pm

...try using only one Rx instead or RX2 and see if there is any difference.
Rafael / NN3RP
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Helmut
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby Helmut » Thu May 14, 2020 7:25 pm

Thank you Rafael and Scott,

I will try it again tomorrow with the volume sliders in win10 and Thetis.

SM7SJR has a tutorial from Feb. 2020 for an Anan 200D - will compare it and use the 96000 sampe rate.

Best 73
Helmut
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby w-u-2-o » Thu May 14, 2020 9:01 pm

I set this up once upon a time during my eval. period with CW Skimmer. Since it's not a tool I'll ever use unfortunately I can no longer do this again to help out as the trial period is expired. However I don't remember it being that difficult. I seem to remember you want to set it VAC IQ mode, 192KHz sample rate, and vaguely remember using the Softrock IQ setting in CW Skimmer. It worked great and you could monitor a full 192KHz.

I recommend you set all your Windows audio levels to 100% (aka 0dB). Similarly, if you use Voicemeeter, set all those levels to 0dB. Only use the VAC RX gain setting to adjust gain.
Helmut
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby Helmut » Sat May 16, 2020 3:59 pm

Hello Om´s,

I think I found the reason, why there are so much artifacts - on Simon´s SDR-Console Site:

The spectrum and Waterfall in SDR Console use DirectX graphics, CW Skimmer uses GDI / GDI+. It is possible that the two do not behave together well causing the SDR Console waterfall to stagger.

Some her using Thetis with GDI or DirectX. I am using DirectX and the CWSkimmer GDI - it may work using both in GDI Mode but does not work when Thetis is on DirectX.

There is (since quite a long time) the hope, that the CWSkimmer will be updated to a more modern code.

@ Scott: I found the slider which does reduce the IQ-Stream, it is not in Thetis, it is in Win10 the AUDIO (german version Sound) Setup where the sampling rate can be changed. When between 20-30 % the stream stops completely and up it does not change the artifacts.

Sorry - tested now for 1 hour with different settings but no change on the artifacts - seems to have nothing to do with DirectX and GDI settings in Thetis
I think - I give up - on this adventure !

VY 73
Helmut dl9eri / oe9eri
Last edited by Helmut on Sat May 16, 2020 5:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat May 16, 2020 4:28 pm

If someone knows how to generate another trial period in CW Skimmer (short of reformatting my hard drive) I'd be happy to take a look at this.
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby NN3RP » Sat May 16, 2020 5:42 pm

Maybe modifying the Registry?
Rafael / NN3RP
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby NN3RP » Sat May 16, 2020 5:45 pm

BTW, Helmut. Why are you mentioning / using SDR Console? In my setup configuration I am only using Thetis!!! Try not using SDR Console altogether.



Helmut wrote:Hello Om´s,

I think I found the reason, why there are so much artifacts - on Simon´s SDR-Console Site:

The spectrum and Waterfall in SDR Console use DirectX graphics, CW Skimmer uses GDI / GDI+. It is possible that the two do not behave together well causing the SDR Console waterfall to stagger.

Some her using Thetis with GDI or DirectX. I am using DirectX and the CWSkimmer GDI - it may work using both in GDI Mode but does not work when Thetis is on DirectX.

There is (since quite a long time) the hope, that the CWSkimmer will be updated to a more modern code.

@ Scott: I found the slider which does reduce the IQ-Stream, it is not in Thetis, it is in Win10 the AUDIO (german version Sound) Setup where the sampling rate can be changed. When between 20-30 % the stream stops completely and up it does not change the artifacts.

Sorry - tested now for 1 hour with different settings but no change on the artifacts - seems to have nothing to do with DirectX and GDI settings in Thetis
I think - I give up - on this adventure !

VY 73
Helmut dl9eri / oe9eri
Rafael / NN3RP
Nation's Capital USA
Helmut
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby Helmut » Sat May 16, 2020 7:12 pm

Rafael,

I had in my first posting with the picture of my setup:

I was testing CWSkimmer 2.1 with my 7000dleMK2 / Thetis 2.7.0 a3 / Firmware Protocol_2_v2.0b.rbf with the Virtual Audio Cable from E. Muzychenko Version 4.60 and Win10/64 prof.

Simon, the writer of SDR-Console posted a setup and has noted the possible difference of the GUI with DirektX and GDI ...... so I did not
test with SDR-Console.

But unfortunately I was not succsessful today when switching between DirectX and GDI on my Thetis 2.7.0 a3 setup... :(

I noticed that you are using Thetis 2.6.9 - could it be that this makes the difference to my 2.7.0 - don´t know ...hi

Have a nice weekend,
73 Helmut
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby NN3RP » Sat May 16, 2020 7:45 pm

I probably was using that older version at the time of the writing....now is v2.7.0 (3/1/20) MW0LGE (a3)

thetis version.gif
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Rafael / NN3RP
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Helmut
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby Helmut » Sat May 16, 2020 8:14 pm

Rafael,

when I check your screenshots in this thread, the strongest station has also some gritty (dont know the correct word in english) around and making wrong decodes but this is not so strong artifacts than on my screen or also on SM7SJR tutorial.

Would like to see another screenshot of Skimmer with your now installed 2.7.0 Version like mine here, today was on 40m a contest with many spanish stations and the band was full of CW strong and week signals but had only garbage on the decoder because of artifacts.

Still ab bit fascinated on the setup - but absolutely don´t know what I am doing wrong in my test-setups - hi

73 for today
Helmut

p.s. you can load the picture with the attachments-option among the answering-window with add-files it will be inserted here
NN3RP
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Re: Thetis and CW Skimmer

Postby NN3RP » Sat May 16, 2020 10:03 pm

Hi Helmut 40M is busy for sure today:

Here is a pic:

cwskimmer_Thetis.gif
cwskimmer_Thetis.gif (1.02 MiB) Viewed 2187 times
Rafael / NN3RP
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