Got the RED & YELLOW

Bill in Georgia
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Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby Bill in Georgia » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:56 pm

Setting up an 8000 coming from a 200D, set up Pure Signal as it ran in the 200D, using the 20db pad out of the coupler. Immediately the right PS ID bar went Yellow / CORRECTING ... the left bar went RED ...
I've got the other 10db pad, but should I wait a couple of days till my pad assortment comes in...
Is there any danger in running it now...??

-TNX, Bill .. KC4PE
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:19 am

Bill,

You do not provide sufficient detail to know whether what you are doing is correct or not. However...

- Assuming you are running 1500W peak
- Assuming you are running an Xtronic coupler with approx. 44dB coupling factor

Then 10dB of additional attenuation is all you need.

- Do you have auto-attenuate turned on in the advanced settings of PureSignal?
- Do you have "ATT on TX" enabled in Setup > General > Ant/Filters > Antenna?

If so, then that red/yellow should automatically turn to green.

Finally, everything you need to know about calculating levels for PureSignal is in this thread.

Note that the 8000 uses a 14dB preamp as opposed to the 20dB preamp in all of the other radios. This means that your step attenuator values will be less by approx. 6dB compared to other radios. However, I still recommend going with the same guidance as the other radios because you really don't want to exceed +10dBm at the PureSignal input connector at the back of the radio.

73,

Scott
Bill in Georgia
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby Bill in Georgia » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:45 am

You do not provide sufficient detail to know whether what you are doing is correct or not. However...

- Assuming you are running 1500W peak ...YES....
- Assuming you are running an Xtronic coupler with approx. 44dB coupling factor....YES....

Then 10dB of additional attenuation is all you need.....TRIED THAT....as I only have the 10 and 20 supplied with the Coupler

- Do you have auto-attenuate turned on in the advanced settings of PureSignal? ........YES......

- Do you have "ATT on TX" enabled in Setup > General > Ant/Filters > Antenna?.....YES.....

If so, then that red/yellow should automatically turn to green.

Finally, everything you need to know about calculating levels for PureSignal is in this thread. Read that and others, a number of times....

Note that the 8000 uses a 14dB preamp as opposed to the 20dB preamp in all of the other radios. This means that your step attenuator values will be less by approx. 6dB compared to other radios. However, I still recommend going with the same guidance as the other radios because you really don't want to exceed +10dBm at the PureSignal input connector at the back of the radio.

Tested the cable from the coupler to the port..PS INPUT and all was OK, no shorts etc..

Basically I came from a working PS on a 200d, just swapped radios, cables, nothing added or subtracted....however I am running
..... v1.5...3.4.1 ...
BUT..BUT when I installed the 8000 I did not go through the standard set up...the 8000 and computer shook hands and there we are.....
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:41 pm

OK, also assuming you are generating 1500W out of the amp with the two-tone test, correct?

Does it work OK with two tone and just not with voice? Or does it not work OK with two tone?

If it doesn't work with two tone at 1500W, then please try this:

1. Export your database (so you can get back all of your settings).
2. Reset your database.
3. Do the minimal amount of setup necessary to test this, then test again with the fresh database.

73,

Scott
Bill in Georgia
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby Bill in Georgia » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:10 pm

I think your on the right track...I should of done a normal setup, then brought in my old sdr file...
I'm checking guide lines and such .... getting ready for some of "Harveys" rath....
Will get to it later, and will let you know the result...
Bill in Georgia
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby Bill in Georgia » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:16 pm

OK ... saved the existing database..
upgraded from 3.4.1 to 3.4.2
Loaded a naked database
Put enough in so I could test PS
Started at 300 watts...ran up to 1500, and still Red & Yellow...When I went to SSB the Red ID was off ....Yellow on, and as I talked the red flickered with my voice... never went Green...
Had the 10db pad in line...
...... No changes on the amp...same settings that the 200D ran with... The amplifier is a Alpha 78 converted to a pair of Imac 800's... been running years....
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:42 pm

Bill,

Can you specifically confirm if you are having problems using the two tone test at full power, please? Let's get that working, first. Generate a two tone using full drive power so that you are getting 1500W out. Does that work, does auto-attenuate do its thing and adjust the step attenuator so that your feedback is in the green range?

Thanks,

Scott
Bill in Georgia
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby Bill in Georgia » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:26 am

Yes...with the TT generator in the PS panel ...I get 1500 watts...., but still maintain the Yell/Red ID's......... the auto-attenuate is checked in the PS panel....but no green shows up .....
I had the 10db pad in..
If I drop back and eliminate the Coupler hook up..and put dual SMA jumper back in ...and run Pure Signal, it works, The green indicators jump right in...
I went back and Installed my original database...and no go with coupler,but OK without the coupler and jumper installed...
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby w-u-2-o » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:20 am

Using two-tone at 1500W, with the coupler and 10dB attenuator in place, what is the step attenuator value being driven to (look at the S-ATT indication in the lower left corner of the main display during two-tone transmit)?

If the S-ATT value above is NOT zero, then if you turn off auto-attenuate and manually operate the step attenuator, which you can do during transmit as the ATT control in the user interface changes to S-ATT during TX, can you get the feedback indicator to turn green? And, if you can, what is the step attenuator value you wind up with?

Using an 8000DLE, at 1500W, with two-tone, using an Xtronic coupler and 10dB attenuator, the step attenuator should be driven to about 20dB. If you are getting a red indication, that is an indication of not enough feedback signal. This means that the step attenuator is being driven to to a very low value, possibly even 0dB. If that is the case, then it is most likely you have a bad cable, bad connection, bad attenuator, or bad coupler. It is not likely that the radio is bad, since it is processing the signal from its internal coupler (when the jumper is in place) just fine.

73,

Scott
Bill in Georgia
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby Bill in Georgia » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:44 am

OK ....I'm out of pocket today ...Wife and my, weekly day on the town, but on Friday AM, I'll go thru from A-Z as outlined.... WOW you are getting to the point that a trouble shooting "Sticky" for PS problems would be in order....
Look for a return Friday afternoon....

-Billy
Bill in Georgia
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby Bill in Georgia » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:44 pm

OK ..it's 7AM on the East Coast...Hurricane Harvey is here...BUT here we go...

As instructed.....with step att in...the meter reads 0 at 1500 watts....(10db pad)

Ran the step att manually ....ran from 0 to 30 db...NO CHANGE
Changed cable...
changed pads...
Checked the 50 ohm load...reads 53 ohms...
No Luck.......only thing left is the coupler???

Think I should touch base with Dave Paster about the Xtronic, maybe he has a trouble shooting idea?
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby w-u-2-o » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:32 pm

You are using the forward port on the coupler, right?
Bill in Georgia
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby Bill in Georgia » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:56 pm

Yep ....... Forward Port on the coupler has the line with pads and goes to PS INPUT on the 8000 NOT the PS Feedback..... The coupler Reflected port has the 50 ohm load.

Here is what Dave had to offer

he simplest test would be to put a known amount of RF through the
coupler and measure the forward ports output it should be about -44db.
It sounds like you don't need a pad from your description
with 1500w through the coupler you should get about 18dbm from the forward port.
are you terminating the couplers reflected port with a 50 ohm load and
connecting the forward port to the ANAN ?
I'm not familiar with the level that the ANAN 8000 needs at the PS input
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby w-u-2-o » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:09 pm

You should be familiar with the required levels if you followed the link in my first post in this thread.

I would not exceed +13dBm under any conditions in order to prevent damaging the radio.
Bill in Georgia
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby Bill in Georgia » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:34 pm

In reading in other posts dealing with the same subject....I came across this sentence...

See the sentence in BOLD ...I have nothing in the PS FEEDBACK SMA on the 8000

As you described, the XDC-1 forward sample output port is looking into a 50 ohm coaxial cable that is connected to the input of the 50 ohm in-line attenuator. The output of the 50 ohm in-line attenuator is connected, via another 50 ohm coaxial cable to the 50 ohm input impedance of the ANAN's feedback input port... so all is as it should be.
Bill in Georgia
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby Bill in Georgia » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:22 pm

Though the above was a neat bit of information......

I see what you say...yes, nothing more than +13dBm ..... but no matterr what I do ..what Pad..what level of power, ..when in TX the S-ATT never moves off 0.
However if it were not for the color, I would say the PS is working....

I can undo the PS-A and in SSB, project a verbal tone...note the slight garbage on both sides of the Bandwidth visual, then press the PS-A button, and in a 1 second count the garbage folds down and out....giving you perfect straight line up and down....
and when I talk you can see the red "Feedback" turn on and off....
basic problem is
1.- cannot change S-ATT
2.- Wrong colors
-Bill
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:20 pm

Bill,

Make sure DUP is on. In Setup > Display > TX make your settings:

Max: 20
Min: -70
Step: 2
Align: Cntr
Display Grid: checked (ON)

Then transmit a two-tone at 1500W.

Post a screen shot of your panadapter display.

Then transmit a TUN at 1500W.

Post a screen shot of your panadapter display.

These will both be a spectrum of the coupled signal that is being input to the PS INPUT connector. It will tell us what levels you are seeing at the PS INPUT connector under those conditions.

73,

Scott
Bill in Georgia
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby Bill in Georgia » Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:52 pm

[img][img][attachmhttps://apache-labs.com/community/download/file.php?mode=view&id=119ent=0]PS%20TT.jpg[/attachment][attachment=1]tune%20TT.jpg[https://apache-labs.com/community/download/file.php?mode=view&id=118/attachment][/img][/img]

Here, I hope are your two screen shots...I wanted to Emailed them..but....use the zoom feature to get a cleaner view
Attachments
PS TT.jpg
PS TT.jpg (1.03 MiB) Viewed 3261 times
tune TT.jpg
tune TT.jpg (1.01 MiB) Viewed 3261 times
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby w-u-2-o » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:16 pm

Wow, something's broke! It's only showing about -36dBm using TUN. That's way low :o

1500W = 61.8dBm. Less 44dB coupling factor, the output of the coupler should be 17.8dBm. Less the 10dB attenuator, 7.8dBm.

So there is a 44dB discrepancy between what your receiver is seeing and what you should be getting.

Thus, if your amp is really putting out 1500W (61.8dBm) something is wrong with either the coupler, the attenuator, or the cables.

Run your external amp at 100W in TUN, just to drop the power a little. At that power level there should be 6dBm out of the coupler. Remove the attenuator and see if DUP shows 6dBm. If so, then it's a bad attenuator. You can play the same game with the cables, as well.

One other thing you can try, and it's a long shot. It is physically possible, unlikely, but physically possible, that the PS INPUT and PS FEEDBACK connections are reversed internally. Obviously it is correct to use the PS INPUT connector, but if things are reversed internally...If that's the case, then you can confirm this by making your feedback connection to the connector marked PS FEEDBACK. I'd recommend doing this at the 100W power setting on your external amp--no point in stressing things. If you do that, and you see about 6dBm (without the attenuator) on DUP, then I think we've found the culprit.

73,

Scott

P.S. next time you make a screen shot, use the Snipping Tool (it's in Accessories) to just grab the part of the screen you want. In this case, it would be the entire PowerSDR window, not the entire desktop.
Bill in Georgia
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby Bill in Georgia » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:10 pm

my new attenuators just came in .....
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:34 pm

Another forum member, who is perhaps too shy to ask the questions himself, posed them to me in a PM. Since I'm not shy ;) I'll ask them for him. Note that they do represent some pretty basic errors, so I suspect that it is unlikely that either of these is the root cause, but you never know!

1. The coupler is installed on the output of the external amplifier, right? Not between the amp and the radio? Not on the antenna side of any antenna coupler?

2. The coupler is installed facing the correct way, with the input towards the amplifier, and the output towards the antenna or antenna tuner, right/

73,

Scott
Bill in Georgia
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby Bill in Georgia » Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:55 pm

New Pads ..no help!!
Scott:
Based on the info needed in the above, I have made a schematic of how the wiring for the 8000 should be...I don't want to post it until it's been proofed and corrected...
Send me a good email and I will send it to you for a look see....
More and more guys are saying it's probably the two cables running from the main board to the SMA connectors that have been reversed...
..Bill
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby K9RX » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:10 pm

As a reference Bill I connected up a Xtronics XDC-4SO to my Expert 2K ... seems to work fine. I'm getting as much as -70db WITH the amp in line. Phenomenal results. They do seem to vary as its about -55 or so on 20. I'm using an inline 10 db and I can see the "S-ATT" change values as I change power levels with it I believe at -17 db at full power (1.5KW).

Gary
K9RX
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:07 pm

Bill in Georgia wrote:More and more guys are saying it's probably the two cables running from the main board to the SMA connectors that have been reversed...
As did I, several posts above. And suggested how to test to see if that was the problem. And I and others asked a bunch of questions you haven't answered.

If you don't run the suggested tests and tell us what happened, if you don't read and answer all of the questions, we can't help you very well...
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Got the RED & YELLOW

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:57 pm

The schematic you sent appears perfectly correct. It wouldn't hurt to put a 50 ohm terminator on the unused PS Feedback output port.

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