PureSignal Performance

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VK6BMW- Richard
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Location: Perth Western Australia

PureSignal Performance

Postby VK6BMW- Richard » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:04 am

I have been reading with interest all the attempts at running Pure Signal with later versions of Firmware. Yes I was one of those that seemed to see a reduction in the effectiveness of Pure Signal after an upgrade of firmware, but put some of it down to my Linear Amp which requires some work. However, operation of Pure Signal does seem to be somewhat inconsistent across users. I also saw a great deal of inconsistency with it's operation from day to day ! I haven't had chance to do more thorough testing but one session where I adjusted the "AMP delay" I saw the type of problems come and go that have been mentioned. i.e spikes across a 100 KHz or so from the VFO frequency, oscillations of correction as shown in the spectrum display and additional peaks away from the usual extent of 3rd order intermods .
This makes me wonder if those that are reporting different problems have a default or other AMP delay parameter set ?

I was going to "hold back" on comments until I know that my coupler, AMP and setups are optimum before I suggest there is a problem. However, the above finding of differing AMP delay parameters may assist other users and the developers. I guess it reinforces the mentioned "timing issues".
I have occasionally had indications that some more processing power, currently an E8400 dual core , would stop the occasional glitches that I see.
Usually WIN10, PowerSDR mrx PS 3.3.15, DXKeeper,. JTDX, JT-Alert all running as a minimum. CPU utilization does hit 100%

73
Richard

P.S The ANAN 200D is still a great rig to be using.
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w-u-2-o
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Re: PureSignal Performance

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:39 pm

Richard,

If you are using 100% of your CPU, you are going to be disappointed in many aspects of PowerSDR operation. Time to upgrade!

73,

Scott
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VK6BMW- Richard
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Location: Perth Western Australia

Re: PureSignal Performance

Postby VK6BMW- Richard » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:17 am

Too true ! Fortunately it usually sits around 40-70%..hitting 100% is a good reminder too shut something else down and also save some more money for an upgrade...gunna need it for Thetis I suspect.

Richard
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vk3bl
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Re: PureSignal Performance

Postby vk3bl » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:20 am

Richard,

I notice all the problems mentioned above, and also find the experience to be inconsistent. Not sure what the root cause is at this stage; my pc could use upgrading to an SSD (Core I3-2120T, 8Gb Ram), and am also wondering if my coupler is providing enough feedback.

Probably going to build another one based on Hauke VK1HW's design.

My setup is the latest revision, 5.7 firmware and latest Power SDR.
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FM5GB
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Re: PureSignal Performance

Postby FM5GB » Mon May 08, 2017 4:26 pm

Hi all !

I would like to enlighten another fact. I'm utilizing a powerfull computer (I7 4770 K @ 4 GHz, 8Gb ram, 0.5 Tb SSD under Win7 64 Pro). The processor load while running PowerSDR OpenHPSDR mRX v3.3.15 (FW v4.9 on Orion board) never exceeds 12 % (with a lot of other software running). By the way Pure Signal does not significantly increase processor load.
I notice also the so called glitches !. But these seem to occur randomly and NOT to be related to processor load spikes.
These glitches are also visible when I transmit JT65 in form of broadband baseline rises on the panadapter and waterfall (looks like distant lightning strokes when receiving...)
I could get rid of them only by shutting down most of the Internet demanding tasks (on Windows Task Manager/Processes & Services). I could get evidence that opening several pages on the net multiplied the glitches. So I monitored the network activity (windows resource monitoring) and found out that glitches occur simultaneously with network activity spikes which do not necessarily overload the network. When watching an HD movie from my network disk which puts more load on the network (as seen on the monitor) glitches ares less than when trying to access Internet content (I run Firefox as my default browser).
So there may be something to do on network setting. I utilize a fast ethernet Gigabit switch. Is there any mean to prioritize network clients (eg Orion board wich has its static IP address)? Or should I install a second ethernet card (dedicated to the Orion board) in my computer?
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FM5GB
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Re: PureSignal Performance

Postby FM5GB » Mon May 08, 2017 4:54 pm

vk3bl wrote:Richard,

I notice all the problems mentioned above, and also find the experience to be inconsistent. Not sure what the root cause is at this stage; my pc could use upgrading to an SSD (Core I3-2120T, 8Gb Ram), and am also wondering if my coupler is providing enough feedback.

Probably going to build another one based on Hauke VK1HW's design.

My setup is the latest revision, 5.7 firmware and latest Power SDR.


Hi Richard
I'm currently testing a sampler based on the one described by VK1HW. I use an Amidon FT 50-43 toroïd with
32 turns of 0.4 mm enameled wire and same resistor divider (10/39 ohms)
The test on an almost breadboard assembled piece gave the following result on my spectrum analyser;
between 100 kHz and 80 MHz it is pretty flat. Of course this to be tested under a full kilowatt to make sure core
saturation does not degrade the caracteristics. SWR is max 1.1 at 54 MHz and insertion loss is 0.12 db @ 54 MHz.
This test is with simple RG58CU coax. I ordered some feet of RG142 m17/60 coax (cost me an arm) to test it at high power.
See photo
Attachments
Sampler 51 dB 500 kHz to 80 MHz.png
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w-u-2-o
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Re: PureSignal Performance

Postby w-u-2-o » Mon May 08, 2017 8:45 pm

One of the challenges when tracking down things like this is that our language is so imprecise. What is a glitch? What does a glitch look like? There are probably many different types of "glitches".

I have "glitches" that are associated with VAC dropouts on transmit (I only use VAC for audio). These manifest as 192KHz wide, very short noise bursts.

I also have "glitches" that I have found associated with the fact that my amp, an Elecraft KPA, heats up and cools very fast, tenths of second to seconds. These manifest as an initial poor IMD situation at the beginning of a transmission that tails off in about 1 or 2 seconds. On quick VOX transitions I don't see this, but it occurs at the start of each transmission. This is not a fault of PureSignal, per se, as it is essentially a very long duration memory effect and PureSignal chases the amp until it stabilizes. I can cure it by using single calibrate.

The same kind of memory effects can occur when using a highly variable signal source, such as voice, for PureSignal to measure against. Again, this can easily be cured by using single calibrate. Either run a two-tone signal and single calibrate against that, or just bang the button randomly while speaking until you get lucky and you get a calibration you like. Then leave it alone.

I also have "glitches" that I believe are due to dropouts in the Ethernet IF data stream on transmit. However there is no way for me to prove it, as this data steam is open loop and no sequence number errors are generated like they are on receive. These also manifest the same way as VAC dropouts.

I would encourage everyone who is suffering from "glitches" to try single calibrate mode. If things become more stable, this is usually an indication of memory effects of one sort or another.

73!

Scott
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WA0VY
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Re: PureSignal Performance

Postby WA0VY » Tue May 09, 2017 12:41 am

Scott describes the issue quite well, as always. My worst glitches were associated with a video card that had a huge latency issue. After replacing it with a an AMD Firepro 5100, I saw a huge improvement but still had occasional "glitches." I initially thought rebooting HPSDR solved the issue, and then thought recycling the 200D/8000DLE resolved the issues. But no, that was not the answer. At this time, I have found that when the glitches appear, the only thing that has reliably resolved them is to reboot the Windows OS. There is clearly something in Win 10 that either loads and works properly, or doesn't. It isn't just Win 10; I had the same issues in Win 7. And worse, that could change with each and every update. What I can say, with certainty, is that a system reboot resolves the issue unless and until the system goes unstable again. With so many variables in the Win 10 OS, and every day a new update, this is going to be an ongoing issue. The randomness of this bothers me but as the say in Hollywood, "nobody knows anything."
73 Brent WA0VY
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FM5GB
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Re: PureSignal Performance

Postby FM5GB » Tue May 09, 2017 10:13 pm

Hi Scott

You wrote :
"I have "glitches" that are associated with VAC dropouts on transmit (I only use VAC for audio). These manifest as 192KHz wide, very short noise bursts."

What you describe much more precisely than I did, happens on my transmit signal. This occurs not only when using VAC on digital modes but also on a simple tune, or when using the two-tone test even with Pure Signal off. These bursts (a much better word than glitch) are clearly seen on a separate receiver (I use a Perseus to monitor my signal; they are several tens of kHz wide) .The only way to reduce it that I found is to lower network load on my system. On receive such "glitches" happen VERY rarely and would appear as very short audio dropouts like cracks. On receive I have to reduce the Pimary Audio buffer size to minimum AND put load on the network to get them.
Is there anything to be done on the network setup to lessen this ? I was thinking about putting a second Ethernet card in my computer.

Regards, Phil FM5GB
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WA0VY
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Re: PureSignal Performance

Postby WA0VY » Tue May 09, 2017 11:54 pm

Phil, while I know you addressed this question to Scott, I can tell you that I interface with my 8000 (and formerly my 200D) with a dedicated network adapter and it had no effect on the issue whatsoever. I, too, can also see it on tune, and I don't think VAC is the culprit. I do not believe it is a network load issue. I can't tell you how many hours I have spent chasing this demon, and many things make it worse or better. But, I can tell you that restarting Win 10 until I no longer see the issue, works. Its the only thing that has worked for me.
73 Brent WA0VY
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FM5GB
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Re: PureSignal Performance

Postby FM5GB » Wed May 10, 2017 12:26 am

Hi Brent
I'm still under Win7 64 pro. On my system the glitches-dropouts-devil sneezes or whatsoever occur right at the beginning from a cold start.Rebooting don't help.
I'm wondering why more users didnt post about this issue. I will try to investigate with Thetis on New Protocol when I have some time to spend.

73s Phil FM5GB
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WA0VY
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Re: PureSignal Performance

Postby WA0VY » Wed May 10, 2017 12:38 am

Phil, I know that not everyone has the issue, or at least not to the extent that it is highly annoying. Don't know why, but every system is slightly different. I, also, will encounter the issue on a fresh boot - right from moment one. But, rebooting, sometimes more than once, will clear it eventually, at least for quite some time. As near as I can tell, no one has come up with a solution that works 100%. So, good luck, keep at it and keep us informed.
73 Brent WA0VY
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w-u-2-o
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Re: PureSignal Performance

Postby w-u-2-o » Wed May 10, 2017 2:04 am

I believe, but cannot prove, that you guys are discussing the class of "glitch" that I previously described as follows:

"I also have "glitches" that I believe are due to dropouts in the Ethernet IF data stream on transmit. However there is no way for me to prove it, as this data steam is open loop and no sequence number errors are generated like they are on receive. These also manifest the same way as VAC dropouts."

I have found the setting that most affects these glitches is the primary buffer setting. This setting, although appearing under the "Audio" setup tab, has nothing to do with Audio, but instead involves buffering the IF data streams. It's location in the Audio tab is a legacy of the old, old days when IF data was actually delivered as analog audio (I and Q on the stereo pair) and digitized by the sound card in the PC.

73,

Scott

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