Full VAC or Hybrid audio

[CT2IRY]

Morning guys,

Let me bring to the discussion this subject, like the title says, what should be use relying on full VAC like Banana, Potato and so, or make an Hybrid sound system, with VAC for the Digital Modes, and add an external sound card like euphoria UCM just for SSB and CW.

Some defend full VAC, and others the hybrid because of the audio latency in SSB/CW.

Give your opinion.

[w-u-2-o]

What do you mean by "hybrid"? If you use an ASIO compatible sound interface (assume you mean the Behringer U-phoria UMC series) you are still using either cmASIO or VAC. The same is true for digital modes with Voicemeeter, you can use either cmASIO or VAC.

cmASIO will be the absolute lowest latency solution, even lower than using the dedicated interfaces in the ANAN unit. And it requires no tuning or adjustment like the VAC system does to achieve that latency. However it does not play well with all sound interfaces.

VAC can be tuned to have lower latency than the dedicated interfaces in the ANAN unit, but it does take some fussing to get there.

Whether you are using cmASIO or VAC, adding Voicemeeter to provide mixing and routing between digital mode software, an ASIO compatible sound interface, and Thetis adds only a couple of milliseconds, i.e. any additional latency is negligible and very much worth the added convenience IMHO.

FWIW, I use a Presonus Studio 192 Mobile interface for both RX and TX audio, a number of digi mode app's, and I connect everything together through Voicemeeter Potato. Thetis is connected to Voicemeeter using cmASIO.

[CT2IRY]

Hi WU2O,

I should have said that I'm not running an An (yet, I'm looking at it) but an Hermes Lite 2, this is my first SDR radio, só lots of questions about audio and Thetis, Voice meter, etc.

I've been reading your posts, very useful information, have Thetis for HL2 (MI0BOT) install and Voice meter Banana, now my question is, I've been reading about guys that connect the microphone or headphones to the PC directly and run with Voice meter, others like you run the microphone to external audio card, most use the UMC202/404, then the card to the PC.
Choosing the UMC for SSB/CW, and choosing VAC audio (line, if I can call it that) from Voice meter only for digital modes.

What are the pro's and counters from one and the other.

I want to see if I should get a UMC202HD or the likes (or it's better move up to the PreSonus Studio 24c, almost same price tag) or just plug to the PC directly.

I should say that I've the PreSonus HD7 headset to plug in.

Thanks for your attention Sir.

Following your tutorial to see if I can setup Voice meter Banana with Thetis and HL2.

[w-u-2-o]

Hi WU2O,

I should have said that I'm not running an An (yet, I'm looking at it) but an Hermes Lite 2, this is my first SDR radio, só lots of questions about audio and Thetis, Voice meter, etc.

HL2--IMHO they did this right by leaving out the CODEC and audio interfaces on the board.

I want to see if I should get a UMC202HD or the likes (or it's better move up to the PreSonus Studio 24c, almost same price tag) or just plug to the PC directly.

If I'm understanding correctly, the core issue is that you are asking if it is worth getting an external audio interface. Is that correct?

Certainly it is very easy to simply plug in a USB headset with a microphone (examples) and get on the air. Compared to a USB headset like that, an external ASIO-compatible interface:

- Is more expensive, possibly by a lot!
- Allows easy use of high quality, professional microphones, both dynamic and condenser types. It will supply 48V phantom power for the latter.
- Allows easy use of powered studio monitor type speakers.
- Allows easy use of high quality, RFI resistant balanced microphone cables.
- Provides very high quality audio (low noise and low distortion).
- Will provide much lower latency on both receive and transmit.

If using higher spec. mic's, cables and speakers are of interest to you, or if you seek the lowest possible audio latency, then an external interface may be worth it for you. But there's absolutely nothing wrong operating with just a simple and inexpensive USB headset.

[CT2IRY]

HL2--IMHO they did this right by leaving out the CODEC and audio interfaces on the board.

I also agree with you here, it should be better to leave audio path outside SDR radios, and just deal with external sound cards.

If I'm understanding correctly, the core issue is that you are asking if it is worth getting an external audio interface. Is that correct?

Thats correct.
Let me try to explain myt type of operation here, to put all in perspective.
Since my first years on the radio I always been chasing DX, Awards, and contesting, mostly SSB amd RTTY, with few CW ones, but always have use analogic radios (Yaesu and Kenwood, with Microham device) to send CW/SSB (Voice macros)/RTTY, always have use an Heil HC'4 or 5 can't remember, plug into the Microham MicroKeyer II and this plug into the radio and this plug into the radio

So now that I move to SDR, I'm thinking what would be the best way to do this, just plug the USB headphones like you give the example, the Razor Kraken are very use like the ModMic (USB or TRS one) the later attach to some headset, like Bose QC35, some use Audio Tronics full Headphones, etc.
I know that it will be more expensive, but could be worth, if someone elucidate me on the way, I can start making decisions and evem perhaps change my mind, that would be beneficial to have an external card.

I've been looking at the UMC202HD/204/404, PreSonus Studio 24c, and X-Air12, lot's to choose, if you could provide some guidence, I would appreciate.

I've also seen what you've written on other topics, about not so expensive material.

The question here is, will I like talk to a mike that is not on the headset, the headset would be studio one, but is making confusion in my head, the boom microphone, don't know of a DXer/contester operating like that.

or if you seek the lowest possible audio latency

Since I use to analogic radios, the lower latency the better, I use the monitor function to listen to my transmission and CW pitch.

I'm liking to exchage ideas with you, if you bear with me and my questions, this is a new world for me.

Let's see if this weekend I can start configuring Voicemeter Banana with Thetis, for now I can have the sound on my headset or on the PC speakers, or on the monitor speaker's, lets see if I can make sense with the VAC cables create by Voicemeter.

Thank you Sir for all your help.

[w-u-2-o]

If you don't want a headset with a boom mic that's no problem. Everyone makes a USB mic these days. Behringer, Mackie, even RØDE makes one. You can spend a few dollars, or a few hundred dollars!

If you do decide to get an ASIO-capable interface I'd recommend just to get your feet wet with the UMC202HD. It is very economical, provides better performance than most people need, and it is known to work with Thetis cmASIO. Again, the advantage here is that it will support any professional microphone on the market. And it will provide superior latency.

You will not be able to monitor yourself using Thetis. Even if the audio system latency was zero the DSP processing latency by itself is too large. However, if you get a UMC202HD or similar such units will at least allow you to obtain unprocessed monitoring right in the interface.

[CT2IRY]

Hi WU2O (Scott, I belive, if I can call you on a first name bases).

If you don't want a headset with a boom mic that's no problem. Everyone makes a USB mic these days. Behringer, Mackie, even RØDE makes one. You can spend a few dollars, or a few hundred dollars!

Nothing like keep an open mind here, I can always buy $100 range USB Headphones on a later date, if I dont get use to boom microphone.

If you do decide to get an ASIO-capable interface I'd recommend just to get your feet wet with the UMC202HD. It is very economical, provides better performance than most people need, and it is known to work with Thetis cmASIO. Again, the advantage here is that it will support any professional microphone on the market. And it will provide superior latency.

I'm going all out following this route, well let me put the things in this prespective, the UMC202HD is around 80-100€ here in Europe on several online shops, but I have a store in my country (Portugal - CT land) that sell's the Presonus Studio 24c at 119€ and the 26c at 166€ and the Revelator io24 USB audio interface at 139€.

So witch one to choose giving the close price tag?



Another thing, if you bear with me, you always talk about the Potato (I've the Banana install) but I'll start from scratch, and make a clean Install of Thetis (for HL2 - from MI0BOT) and also the Potato, and hope that you can give me guidance on setting the this up, and in choosing the rest of the audio chain, like microphone, headset, etc... for headset I've here the PreSonus HD7, if you can do that.

If you want I can open a new thread or just continue here, if the first please point me to the right place so I can open it up.

Thanks a lot for your support and explanation to help everyone to get the best of this radios.

[w-u-2-o]

The UMC202HD has a simple, straightforward driver that is very easy to understand and set up and proven with Thetis cmASIO. The Revelator io24 is a more capable device that comes with a much more complex driver and a huge suite of audio software. It has not been proven with cmASIO but other Presonus units have been so perhaps that risk is low. For the money I'd get the Revelator and accept the risk and learning curve, but that's me

The HD7 is an excellent headphone and I have a pair myself.

Microphone discussions are always complex and a very personal decision. My theory is that the mic should have a flat response because equalization or coloring of the sound should be done in an equalizer, not in the microphone. It is much easier and less expensive to get a flat response in a condenser mic than in a dynamic mic. There are many excellent, large diameter condenser mic's in the $100 range. Examples include the Behringer B1, MXL770, AT2020, etc. I use a B1.

As for Voicemeeter, it is not strictly necessary. In most cases it becomes a convenience item. However, if you intend to utilize digital audio workstation (DAW) software for any reason, then it becomes necessary as an ASIO interconnect between the USB sound interface, Thetis and the DAW. And there is now another option to do the same thing, VB Audio Matrix.

[CT2IRY]

The UMC202HD has a simple, straightforward driver that is very easy to understand and set up and proven with Thetis cmASIO. The Revelator io24 is a more capable device that comes with a much more complex driver and a huge suite of audio software. It has not been proven with cmASIO but other Presonus units have been so perhaps that risk is low. For the money I'd get the Revelator and accept the risk and learning curve, but that's me

Since I'm in the begin of this, I'm reluctant on the choice from a strictly point of money, the Revelator is the best investment, but like you said complex, for a beginner, the UMC202HD is almost the same cost, but could be the best for someone like me (new bigginer on this new world of SDR), oh decisions, which route I take I'll count with the help of all to put me on the track, and config all of this.

The HD7 is an excellent headphone and I have a pair myself.

I've this headset for a few years now but never realized that the brand was good.

Microphone discussions are always complex and a very personal decision. My theory is that the mic should have a flat response because equalization or coloring of the sound should be done in an equalizer, not in the microphone. It is much easier and less expensive to get a flat response in a condenser mic than in a dynamic mic. There are many excellent, large diameter condenser mic's in the $100 range. Examples include the Behringer B1, MXL770, AT2020, etc. I use a B1.

I've been reading most of you post about equipment's and I'm learning, and making a list, and searching prices and all.

As for Voicemeeter, it is not strictly necessary. In most cases it becomes a convenience item. However, if you intend to utilize digital audio workstation (DAW) software for any reason, then it becomes necessary as an ASIO interconnect between the USB sound interface, Thetis and the DAW. And there is now another option to do the same thing, VB Audio Matrix.

That is the part that I don't know if I neeed, I though that Voicemeter was use to make all the routing of the audio that comes out of HL2, to the outside programs, and it was a necessary piece of this.

[w-u-2-o]

Oops, yeah, forgot you need some sort of virtual audio cable software for the digi mode stuff. I like VB Audio Voicemeeter. Some people still prefer the original Muzychenko VAC software. Others prefer the VB Audio cables software. VB Audio just came out with their "Matrix" software which I have not tried but that might also be a good solution.

The reason I like Voicemeeter is because of its similarity to a hardware audio mixing board. I find it easy and intuitive (except for the horribly named drivers ).

[CT2IRY]

Oops, yeah, forgot you need some sort of virtual audio cable software for the digi mode stuff. I like VB Audio Voicemeeter. Some people still prefer the original Muzychenko VAC software. Others prefer the VB Audio cables software. VB Audio just came out with their "Matrix" software which I have not tried but that might also be a good solution.

Haaa, I knew that it maybe was for something that everybody use it, so Voicemeter is for routing the audio for digital modes.
All the other "voice audio" pass thru the external audio card like the UCM202HD (24c or revelator), starting to get there slowly.

The reason I like Voicemeeter is because of its similarity to a hardware audio mixing board. I find it easy and intuitive (except for the horribly named drivers ).

That is my case, all the channels are the same.

Start to get it, thanks Scott, for all the help and explanation.

[w-u-2-o]

Maybe I didn't explain good enough

This is how I use Voicemeeter:

Capture.JPG (26.55 KiB) Viewed 963 times

That way I can turn decide what audio goes in and out of Thetis and where it goes. This is particularly helpful on receive when you may wish for the audio to go to both the digi mode software (perhaps more than one digi mode app) and also the speakers (plugged into the Presonus) at the same time and at different levels.

[CT2IRY]

Got you Scott.

Thanks for the picture, like they say, one picture is worth 1000 words.

So now the demand start.

202HD or Revelator, for the price, given that the Revelator has not been proven, might take a chance here, if not 202HD or 24c.

Microphone I like yours and the 2020, I've been seeing a few on the $100 range.

And still need a boom.

Headset got the HD7.

So I think I'm not missing nothing.

[Chipp]

I am using the Presonus Revelator IO.24 and cmASIO with my Anan 7000MKII for the past three months. I use the Muzychenko VAC software with the Revelator IO.24 for the digital modes. The microphone is the Audio-Technica AT2035.

My previous audio interface was the UMC202HD, also with cmASIO and VoiceMeeter Potato. It worked very well, although I was not using any of the DAW capabilities.

The Revelator IO.24 is easy to set up as a basic audio interface. However, it really shines when you take advantage of its numerous capabilities. The onboard hardware provides real time digital processing and the accompanying software extends the functionality even more. Yes, there is a learning curve but you can do it at your own pace. There are a number of YouTube videos you can watch to get you started.

[CT2IRY]

Hi Chipp,

Thanks for your input, you guys are start to convince me to get the io24, instead of the 202HD, spend money only once kind of thing.

About the microphone's I'm going to stay on the Behringer or Audio-Technica, yours and Scott's are good references for me.

Are you using a boom for the 2035, or it's sitting on the desk.

[Chipp]

Hi Nuno, I am using a rather pricey boom from Heil Sound. There are several much more cost effective ones available on Amazon that should work just fine.

[K1LSB]

Nuno,

I'm using this boom with my AT2035 mic, it's quite inexpensive and I like it a lot:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01BW ... =UTF8&th=1

The mic cable is hidden inside the boom arms, I like that too.

I wrapped the springs with bicycle inner tubing to silence any adjustment of the boom position while transmitting. People tell me they can't hear any noise when I adjust the boom.

Mark

[Dan]

Fwiw, I use a Plantronics CS361N It is a RF headset. It is 600 ohm transformer output, perfect. Great RX audio, lightweight and very comfortable. With voice processing tools in Thetis, no one can tell the difference between it and the RE 20, so I got rid of the boom mic setup. It is annoying to be held captive to a boom mic. I use VOX & cmASIO.
Thetis VP tools work so well, I have retired the Symetrix 528e

Regards, KM6CQ Dan

[CT2IRY]

Hi guys, thanks a lot for all the info about material that you guys are using, that would give me a base to filter good from bad stuff.

Now I've got a problem, I just pick up my PreSonus HD7 and plug it to the PC and the audio was low, to low, so I plug a 10€ headset from the kid to the PC and all was ok, good audio and loud, that make me conclude that the PreSonus has some malfunction, so maybe it's time to pur a new headset on the shopping list, any recommendations.

[w-u-2-o]

There's nothing wrong with your HD7's. They have an impedance of 32 ohms, like many high performance headphones do. Your PC simply can't drive them effectively. If and when you get an external interface that interface should drive them just fine.