Audio Input Proposal

W8JJ
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Audio Input Proposal

Postby W8JJ » Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:20 pm

I'm awaiting delivery of a 7000DLE MKII and have been reading the manuals and this community forum while contemplating the audio input chain. Please provide feedback and critique before I begin making cables. I'm proposing to use the W2IHY iBox as a transformer, audio isolation device, and for PTT functionality. I'm brand new to SDR radio. So, all assistance and advice is appreciated. I'm particularly interested in confirming that the wiring diagram is correct and optimal with regard to the balanced to unbalanced inputs (PDF Attached for better viewing).

https://www.cloudmicrophones.com/cloudlifter-cl-1
https://w2ihy.com/product/ibox/
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Audio Input Proposal

Postby w-u-2-o » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:35 pm

I think you are wasting a lot of money.

1. The PR40 is way overpriced. It is a hold-over from the days when radios did not have built in audio frequency equalizers and hams were not really into professional audio rack equipment. It is essentially a very expensive way to EQ yourself in the microphone. And the internal components of a PR40 are nothing to write home about. So if you want to spend a lot of money to sound how Bob Heil thought you should sound, which can be anywhere from cool radio DJ to terrible depending on your source material (the tonal qualities of your voice), with lots of extra low end, it's a good choice (but a bad decision IMHO ;) ).

Now you have not one, but two semi-parametric, 10 band equalizers built into your radio software (Thetis). Use those. Buy a high quality, low cost, large diameter condenser microphone like the Behringer B1, MXL770 or 990, AKG P120, Audio Technical AT2020, etc. Pair that with the Neewer phantom supply. Adjust your transmit EQ in Thetis and you'll sound great.

2. You won't need the Cloudlifter if you go with the mic suggestions above. If you are bound and determined to go with the PR40 (or another dynamic mic), you can use the Cloudlifter in lieu of activating the mic pre-amp in the 7000 (Settings > Transmit > 20dB Mic Boost). However, my personal opinion that the Cloudlifter is a waste of time and money in this particular application. You are not mic'ing up a quiet source like some gentle acoustic guitar playing, and you are not using a ribbon mic. The built-in pre-amp is more than sufficiently good. Residual IMD in the transmitter, even with PureSignal linearization operating, will completely mask any benefits the Cloudlifter might provide.

The iBox is probably a good idea. It will formally and correctly perform the balanced to unbalanced conversion rather than doing it in the cable, and is one of the few reasonably priced W2IHY accessories. However I can't speak to how well it works or does not work. You will probably want to run minimum attenuation since you are converting mic level inputs (even if you are using the Cloudlifter). The wiring you show looks correct given the default settings for the mic input pinning in Thetis (Setup > General > H/W Select). You don't strictly need the PTT wiring, you could use the rear panel PTT input connector on the 7000. The one thing that concerns me is that the 5 pin DIN connector is inherently unshielded.

Finally, for anyone who is as concerned about audio quality as you appear to be, you are going to want to study Rob's excellent tutorial here:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2550

It is a good starting place. Thetis has since added a much more capable downward expander/VOX section, which you will also want to explore.
W8JJ
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Re: Audio Input Proposal

Postby W8JJ » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:05 pm

Thank you for the detailed and thoughtful response Scott. You have opened my eyes to a new world of microphones. I've never considered condenser microphones in the past. I also appreciate your concerns regarding the cost factor. However, all of the equipment that I've listed is currently surplus gear at my station. I also have an RE20 collecting dust that I may substitute for the PR40 in the plan. Since I already have the dynamic microphones and CL-1 in stock, does this change your recommendation at all? Any thoughts on the RE20 for this application with, or without, the CL-1? I am also fine with going in a different direction using a condenser mic if that optimizes the audio potential.

In other words, are there any inherent benefits to using a condenser microphone to achieve great audio? I'm building this station from the ground up with a sharp focus on transmit audio. After listening to Anan users on the air it is clear that this radio, and the available software tools, are very capable of producing the sound that I'm seeking. For now, I intend to keep my Elecraft gear for CW until I have a chance to test the Anan in the real world during a contest. But, the phone duties are definitely being migrated to the Anan with this station upgrade.

Also, I had not realized that PTT functionality was available on the back panel until now. PTT was a significant factor for selecting the W2IHY iBox. Your concerns about the 5 pin DIN are noted and under consideration as well. This makes me consider the possibility of selecting a different commercially available transformer since the PTT issue is moot and the attenuation feature may not be necessary. Or is it?

I'm most relieved to learn that I've managed to successfully figure out the wiring for this project as I've been struggling a bit with that aspect. Now, it's just a matter of inserting and deleting various components into the path based on the hardware that I ultimately select.

73 Tim W8JJ
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Audio Input Proposal

Postby w-u-2-o » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:44 pm

Hi Tim,

I'm also really into audio, and was a big proponent of the new audio processing chain that originally came along in PowerSDR mRX, and is now even better in Thetis. The look-ahead VOX with side chain gating is especially fabulous :) Before all that I used to do a lot of processing using DAW software, but no longer, the built-in features of the SDR software we use make it unnecessary for 99% of us.

W8JJ wrote:Thank you for the detailed and thoughtful response Scott. You have opened my eyes to a new world of microphones. I've never considered condenser microphones in the past. I also appreciate your concerns regarding the cost factor. However, all of the equipment that I've listed is currently surplus gear at my station. I also have an RE20 collecting dust that I may substitute for the PR40 in the plan. Since I already have the dynamic microphones and CL-1 in stock, does this change your recommendation at all? Any thoughts on the RE20 for this application with, or without, the CL-1? I am also fine with going in a different direction using a condenser mic if that optimizes the audio potential.

If you already own all of the gear, then by all means use it! I'm not a fan of the PR40 sound, but that's just me. I'd go with the RE20 given a choice. And if you like the way the CL-1 sounds, again by all means use it (but not on a condenser, and make sure "mic boost" is off in the software). But, again, a lot of that is very subjective. You need to like how you sound to you. BTW, do not use the MON TX monitor feature with PureSignal turned on. MON picks off the audio after predistortion. So be aware of that. Get things set, then turn on PureSignal.

In other words, are there any inherent benefits to using a condenser microphone to achieve great audio?

In your case not really, because you already own everything. However, for someone starting from scratch, they can achieve a nearly ruler flat, colorless response from any number of large diameter condensers. With a flat response it can be easier to bring in the EQ you want/need, rather than trusting that a more "colorful" mic will do it for them automagically. Also, there are so many outstanding condenser choices at right around the $100 price point, it is a lot less expensive than buying a dynamic mic with equivalent performance. And, admittedly, I'm somewhat biased by a philosophical viewpoint that one should not do their EQ in the microphone. But other than that, and cost, there's no reason per se to use one mic over another.

I'm building this station from the ground up with a sharp focus on transmit audio. After listening to Anan users on the air it is clear that this radio, and the available software tools, are very capable of producing the sound that I'm seeking. For now, I intend to keep my Elecraft gear for CW until I have a chance to test the Anan in the real world during a contest. But, the phone duties are definitely being migrated to the Anan with this station upgrade.

With PureSignal linearization working, the very high-Q passband filters, and the look-ahead, soft-limiting ALC, even without the rest of the audio bells and whistles in the software there is no question that a properly set up PowerSDR/Thetis/ANAN combination is the best sounding configuration in ham radio. If you put in the skull sweat you will not be disappointed! And the bells and whistles are just icing on the cake. Three different stages of compression (leveler, CFC 10-band semi-parametric compression, and the ALC), two stages of 10-band semi-parametric EQ, and the phase rotator. It's a rack in a box, all in software! Plus the fully adjustable expander/VOX with look-ahead and side-chain gating. Whatever you do, don't use the old COMP compressor or CESSB. That stuff is old and outdated.

Also, I had not realized that PTT functionality was available on the back panel until now. PTT was a significant factor for selecting the W2IHY iBox. Your concerns about the 5 pin DIN are noted and under consideration as well. This makes me consider the possibility of selecting a different commercially available transformer since the PTT issue is moot and the attenuation feature may not be necessary. Or is it?

I do not believe you will need any attenuation. If you already own a balanced to unbalanced transformer by all means employ that instead.

It's worth noting that many of us who are serious about audio avoid the analog section of the ANAN hardware entirely. It's a pretty low end CODEC in there. Instead many of us purchase a professional sound interface, like the Behringer UMC series. I use a somewhat higher-end Presonus interface. This lets us plug our microphones right into a professional level pre-amp and digitizer that supplies real 48V phantom power and uses legit balanced audio I/O. We then utilized the VAC interface facilities of PowerSDR/Thetis to send and receive audio. I route my receive audio out of that interface to a pair of JBL LSR305 studio monitors, which does wonderful things for my receive audio! It takes a little more skull sweat to get the VAC interface tweaked and tuned, but IMHO it's worth it.
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kc2rgw
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Re: Audio Input Proposal

Postby kc2rgw » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:10 am

I have a bunch of audio gear and have been playing with it since I got licensed really. With the Anan I’ve wired analog inputs and also done the VAC route with a USB pre-amp. They both work, but I prefer the sound the VAC/USB pre route.
W8JJ
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Re: Audio Input Proposal

Postby W8JJ » Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:52 pm

I've decided to set up my station initially using the analog mic input to learn the ropes since I have all of the necessary hardware in stock. However, I anticipate migrating to virtual audio very shortly thereafter. To that end, I've ordered a used inexpensive XLR condenser microphone (Blue Ember) to get started. If I don't like the microphone with the Anan, I will use it for online streaming applications, or put it up for resale and experiment with other microphones.

So, here's the question that I'd like to pose to the group. I've been reading and researching USB interface devices to get the basic lay of the land. I own two Focusrite units for podcasting and online streaming. I now realize these are consumer grade products that will likely result in disappointment as a ham station device. So, my desire is to buy a professional grade interface and be done with it.

What are a few specific products that you recommend? It seems low latency and connectivity speed are the characteristics of most importance (I think). However, I'm sure there are other considerations that I'm not yet aware of as a new user. Perhaps the user community has opinions about devices to avoid for whatever reason.

In sum, I'm not necessarily looking for a budget-minded solution. Rather, I want to purchase something on the leading edge of performance without going too far overboard for this very specific application.

This is a great community and I want to thank everyone for their contributions to this thread.

73 Tim W8JJ
W8JJ
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Re: Audio Input Proposal

Postby W8JJ » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:01 am

After looking a numerous reviews, I seem to be gravitating toward the Audient iD14 USB Audio Interface. Here is a link to the specifications and I'd be interested to hear feedback from those more experienced about these devices. I like the form factor, the preamps seem decent, and the reviews are very good. However, I realize that reviews are subjective based on the use case for each reviewer. How does this unit stack up to what we are trying to accomplish with the ANAN and VAC?

https://audient.com/products/audio-inte ... ech-specs/

Here is a link to a nice review of the product that is based on actual measurement data.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwO9oqbhzes

73 Tim W8JJ
W8JJ
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Re: Audio Input Proposal

Postby W8JJ » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:30 am

Of course, five minutes after I post about the Audient, I learn about MIDI functionality for the first time . Now, I'm back to the beginning looking for a USB interface as I will likely want a controller at some point. This last two weeks has been like drinking from a firehose. I know how these things go when entering a new aspect of any hobby. I am trying to avoid buying introductory components and wish to skip ahead to the professional gear now so that I can grow into it. I believe that it is most economical in the long run. However, I'm not sure what the best choice is or the most important interface specifications to focus on while researching this.
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kc2rgw
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Re: Audio Input Proposal

Postby kc2rgw » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:38 am

Just plug that mic into a Focusrite, select the ASIO option in the VAC1 menu, pick the mic for input and you can either send to the focusrite and use the outputs on it or you can plug into the headphone jack and use that as the audio out. Any subtlety between the mic pres on the Focusrite, Behringer, Motu, etc is going to be lost along the line for ham radio anyway. You’ll get an idea how it works and then know if you need to get a different interface.

I have a Focusrite 8i6 3rd gen, the only issue is that I have RF getting into the USB on 40m from time to time. There are nits to pick but no show stoppers.
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Audio Input Proposal

Postby w-u-2-o » Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:02 pm

If you already have a Focusrite interface start with that. Make sure the drivers are fully up to date. What do you have, a Scarlett?

I'm not familiar with the Audient. I have experience with the low end, 2x2 Behringer, Focusrite and Steinberg interfaces. For our purposes all that really matters is how well the driver software performs. Of those three, the UMC driver software seems the most flexible (you can manually select buffer sizes and driver "speed"), and the most stable. The Behringer UMC202HD is quite inexpensive at only $120 on Amazon right now.

I'd keep Voicemeeter in play. Set up the Focusrite as your channel strip A1 hardware input, and your A1 hardware output. Put some powered speakers on the Focusrite outputs. Use ASIO, of course. Then setup Thetis on channel strip B1 using ASIO. Make sure everything is set to 48KHz sample rate across the board. Configure your sends/patches in Voicemeeter accordingly. Once you've got TX and RX audio flowing through that lash up you can then think about bringing Reaper into the game using the Voicemeeter ASIO Insert driver.

As for MIDI controllers, if you've got questions please start a separate topic in the MIDI Controllers sub-forum.
W8JJ
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Re: Audio Input Proposal

Postby W8JJ » Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:57 pm

I have a Focusrite Scarlett Solo Gen 3 and a 2i2 Gen 2 available. I wonder if there is an advantage to using one, or the other, for this project? I suppose it does make sense to give these audio interfaces a try as was also mentioned by KC2RGW.

I'm still a couple of weeks away from getting on the air as I'm awaiting parts for a needed PC upgrade and other miscellaneous connectors and such. But, the ANAN 7000DLE MKII arrived safely and is here and ready to go once the PC is operational.

I'm using this time to read, read, and read some more about this addition to my station and all that goes with it. I'm trying to get many needed decisions made during this down time and get components ordered and delivered to avoid further delays. I'm really enjoying learning (although painful at times) all of the terminology and functionality that goes into building this type of station.

73 Tim W8JJ
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Audio Input Proposal

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:02 am

Use the 2i2. Do you have a pair of studio monitors you can plug into it for receive?
W8JJ
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Re: Audio Input Proposal

Postby W8JJ » Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:10 am

Yes, I have a pair of powered KRK monitors at the station.
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w-u-2-o
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Re: Audio Input Proposal

Postby w-u-2-o » Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:41 am

Perfect!

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